I need some advice/opinions on F and E-flat tubas.

[Uncle Buck]

Very possibly, the Yamaha YEB-321S is the best "bang for the buck" EEb or F tuba out right now. You wouldn't be getting what you would from one of the "top of the line" models, but it is a very solid, consistent tuba that can be used in solo and chamber settings, and even can hold its own in a reasonably sized band or orchestra.

If you think you can get by without a fifth valve, and don't mind top-action, it's a great bargain. There are lots of used ones floating around in the $1500-2500 range.

There are plenty of better bass tubas out there, but it would be near-impossible to find a better one in its price range.

[jtuba]

Surprisingly, the Cerveny 5 rotor F (3500 new) are decent instruments that are reasonably priced. You can get them from Dillon's and I played one at Tuba Exchange yesterday. I used loan money to buy my CC in grad school.

[Alan Baer]

Hi guys,
Just thought I'd let you know that the new Miraphone F is done and is every bit as good as you hoped for. I received the horn on one day and did a recital on it 4 days later, it's THAT
GOOD..
Recorded all last week on it and it blows anything that I've ever played out of the water...
I figure that they will be arriving in the next couple of months now that all is settled on.
This is a smaller horn than the 181 but with the same valve section. The wrap is different on the 6th, 5th and 1st valve allowing for comfortable ergos, and great intonation.
BTW, the low register rocks!
Check it out!
Alan Baer

[Mark]

The wrap is different on the 6th, 5th and 1st valve allowing for comfortable ergos, and great intonation.

That's good news about the new F tuba. Will there be a "fix" for the intonation problems with the 181?

[jon112780]

Get the Besson 983 Eb.

1.) Best solo Eb out there- period.
2.) Best bang for the buck. I've seen used ones for $4,000 and they sell new for around $6,500

[Steve Inman]

My very amateur bass tuba experience includes starting with several used, "vintage" Eb tubas, culminating in the Besson 983 after saving up a few bucks. I've also owned two Yamaha YEB-381 (5V version of the YEB-321 Eb). I've owned an Amati 6V F with a "quint" 5th valve that dropped the pitch to BBb and I've also owned a YFB-621 5V 3/4 Yamaha F.

My personal opinions, observations and conclusions follow:

1a. I absolutely love the sound of a rotary F tuba -- the favorite horn for my ears to listen two
1b. I absolutely hate the "feel" of the low D, Db, C notes on every rotary F tuba I've played.
1c. The best response for these "typically troublesome" notes came from one of the Miraphone 181 F's. I'm interested to see how the 281 F's play in this regard.
1d. Joe (a.k.a. Bloke) touts the old B&S 6V F tubas as having a choice of fingerings for these "troublesome notes" that eliminates the problem. If I could find one of these horns, I would probably be in heaven.
1e. The Yamaha 621 3/4 F is just a wee bit too small to work as a quintet horn, IMO. My quintet always wanted a bigger / broader bass voice.
1f. Because of my above experiences with F tubas (which I was truely trying to embrace so I could have at least some fingerings common with my CC), I have given up on these horns for the time being and have switched back to Eb for my bass tuba. I will give the Miraphone 281 a try, however, when it comes out.
2a. The Besson Eb was quite decent, but I never got used to the compensating low register "stuffiness" for any of the compensating Eb tubas I've played. Hence, I no longer own this horn, nor am I interested in any of the other compensating Eb's on the market. Besides, the Besson 981 is a bit big for a solo horn, I think.
2b. Since I am not a tuba soloist, I still have my heart set on a Willson 3400 Eb as an excellent choice for my situation, which is mostly quintet, brass choir and pit or chamber orchestra sized groups. This horn would actually have quite a bit of overlap with my Conn 56J, and I've had the local community orchestra tubists play both his Willson Eb and my Conn 56J side-by-side for me. Very similar sound, with the Willson having just a slightly "clearer" sound (bell is 2" smaller). I might be able to make do with the Willson 3400 as my "big" tuba.
2c. At the time I tried out new Eb tubas, I really wanted to buy the MW 2141 5V Eb. But at that time (several years ago, first "incarnation" of this model), there were some serious intonation quirks with these horns. The one I tried had octave Eb's out of tune! I've heard all of these issues have been resolved, and that this is now an excellent Eb tuba to consider. Not as "big" of a sound as the Willson Eb, but not as heavy, not as expensive, and maybe you want your Eb to sound like a bass tuba anyway.
2d. Meanwhile, I have Yamaha Eb #2 (YEB-381) as my bass tuba. This tuba has a 15" bell and ~.689 bore. The 5th valve is contained within the 4th valve tubing, so it is dependent and acts like a 1/2 step trigger. Lee Stofer is modifying mine to have an extension option to make it a long whole step valve. Unfortunately, you don't have the 2-3-5 option in place of 2-4 as 5 does nothing if 4 is not in use. The YEB-381 tubas can be found for between $2500 and $3000 typically, and are an excellent bass tuba. I heard that Patrick Sheridan used one of these horns before switching to the Besson 983. Even though the specs show a bell size only one inch larger than the rather modest sized 3/4 F (621), the YEB321 / 381 Eb's are NOT 3/4 size. There is a surprising increase in the size/sound of this horn when compared with it's 3/4-sized F counterpart. There are actually some folks out there who prefer the YEB-381 to the Willson 3400 (which actually provides more of a 4/4 CC sound anyway).

I'm currently using the Conn 56J CC and following the "alteration" by Lee Stofer, the Yamaha 381 Eb for my two horns. I'll get a nice difference in "voice" between these two horns.

Random thoughts for your potential edification.

Cheers,

[dwerden]

One of my students at the University of Minnesota is looking for an E-Flat tuba that might take the place of a CC and an F. I asked advice from some of the finest professional tuba players in this country. The summary is posted on my blog:
http://dwerden.com/blog3/display_blog.c ... m=4&y=2005

If that address is too long, just go to my home page:
http://www.dwerden.com

and find the News link. The blog can be accessed from there.

Comments are welcomed!!

Dave Werden
U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba, U. of MN

[Gorilla Tuba]

The great thing is that you currently have CC tuba that will probably fit most of your current needs. As you can tell by the advice of the posters on this site, there are many fine Eb and F choices available. I highly recommend waiting until the fall and asking your new teacher, Tom Stein. It may be wise to put your money in a savings account right now and wait until you can afford something really great... not settling for something just because it was more affordable. Chances are, as an incoming freshman, you will be better off mastering the CC than learning a new keyed instrument. I may be wrong... you probably do play very well, but it can't hurt to wait and get the advice of your mentor for the next 4 years (at least).

[Gorilla Tuba]

I'm actually going to be a grad student. I feel as well that I need to wait and speak to him about it, but then I'm worried that I'll be behind the game if I don't already have some skill on an F or E-flat before I start.

Please forgive my presuming you as an undergrad. I think you'll really enjoy UMKC. I tinkered with F tubas while in the Army (before my undergrad) , but never got comfortable with 'em. It wasn't until my 2nd year of grad school that I really decided to plat F tuba. I wouldn't think that there is any reason to rush it.

[RyanSchultz]

I struggled for several years to find the right F for me. I agree with Alan, the Mirafones are hard to beat. If you want an "F" I would start there. I've had my Mirafone for a little over a year and love it.

[CJ Krause]

***

[Steve Inman]

Just a FYI, I noticed that Baltimore Brass has a used MW2141. It's pretty rare to find a used one, so I'm sure it won't last long...

WARNING: find out how old any used MY2141 horn is. For the first few (several?) years, they had a reputation of having intonation issues. If you plan to purchase one used, be sure to arrange for a trial period so you can check it out with a tuner before buying. Fortunately, all of the reputible brass shops, including Baltimore Brass, will allow you to return a horn if you aren't satisfied.

The first "new" Eb horns I seriously tried were a Besson 981, a Besson 983 and a MW2141 -- several years ago. I wanted to buy the 2141, but the octave Eb's were not in tune. It had multiple, noticeable intonation problems. So I decided to take the 983 at that time. According to multiple sources, MW made some changes and the newer 2141's are typically quite good.

Good luck,

[MikeMason]

even with your valve requirements, i think you should try the yam yfb 621 before you buy the meinl.all the notes work on the yamaha...

[Rick Denney]

I prefer rotary valves because they are a lot more gentle on my arthitis.

I'm looking for something with a good high range. If the higher notes are going to be a problem, then I might as well play everything on my C. My biggest concern with the low range is playing in tune and without a lot of stuffiness. I know most F tubas are questionable with the lower notes, but as long as I can play them and it feels like they are supposed to be there, I'm okay.

I think a 3/4 size horn would be ideal because I want the instrument for solo and quintet playing. I don't need it for any large ensembles. Like I mentioned in my first post here, I'm looking for a small, light instrument, something I can play for a while without exhausting myself.

Personally, I think these requirements are mutually exclusive. I haven't played any rotary F tubas that didn't require a different approach to the low register, and that weren't huge. The small rotary F's require an even more particular approach with the low register. The Meinl-Weston 182 is the only instrument that bears consideration with these requirements.

But I think your last sentence overrides your other issues. If you want an instrument that is easy to play and easy to hold, the Yamaha 621 that others have mentioned really can't be beat. It is not an orchestral F tuba and will not project the way a big F will. But I have played mine in quintet for many years and also played it in a tuba quartet. The latter application usually required standing, and the group played a theme-park gig for a year that required standing in brutally hot outdoor conditions. The little Yamaha was completely effect for those applications, having a voice of its own that can go trombonelike when needed for baroque quintet arrangements, be a clear middle voice in a tuba quartet, and play the low notes like a contrabass. My B&S carries better and I prefer its sound out front when played with a large ensemble, but it is definitely, positively NOT easier to play than the 621.

Rick "who finds the 621 ergonomics to be comfortable and the intonation as good as the alternatives" Denney

[Mark Preece]

You just can't go wrong with e Besson 983! A very versitile horn!

[Mark Preece]

It's obviously a very personal thing, but man, I'm really enjoying my 983 Eb. I like the ergonomics of it, and I'm really surprised how strong the low register is for such a small tuba. But more than that, it just has the smoothest, most even middle register of almost any tuba I've ever played. I think that the longer leadpipe, combined with the somewhat open wrap on the various valve slides, contributes to the low range being pretty decent for a compensating tuba. I think it's a near ideal brass quintet tuba. Then again, I generally prefer bigger m.p.'s, and have always had a much stronger low range than high range. I also like it that it's fairly easy to play the 983 while standing - something that's near impossible with the 3 + 1 compensating tubas.

Barry Guerrero

Amen to that, Barry! My horn shares these same characteristics, and I also agree with the ergonomics of the horn. I have played standing up many times, and the 983 really is easy to play this way!

[Lew]

It's obviously a very personal thing, but man, I'm really enjoying my 983 Eb. I like the ergonomics of it, and I'm really surprised how strong the low register is for such a small tuba. But more than that, it just has the smoothest, most even middle register of almost any tuba I've ever played. I think that the longer leadpipe, combined with the somewhat open wrap on the various valve slides, contributes to the low range being pretty decent for a compensating tuba. I think it's a near ideal brass quintet tuba. Then again, I generally prefer bigger m.p.'s, and have always had a much stronger low range than high range. I also like it that it's fairly easy to play the 983 while standing - something that's near impossible with the 3 + 1 compensating tubas.

Barry Guerrero

Amen to that, Barry! My horn shares these same characteristics, and I also agree with the ergonomics of the horn. I have played standing up many times, and the 983 really is easy to play this way!

I agree that I love the way my 983 plays and sounds, but I don't think that it would be the right horn for this person. Although I find the valve position very comfortable, the piston stroke may be a little too much for someone with arthritic hands.

[tubagirl5]

My advice would be to listen to great players play f tubas and to choose a horn similar or exactly the same to what you like best. If you love Gene Pokorney's playing get a PT-10 or 15. If you love Alan Baer get a Miraphone. If you love Mike Roylance get a Rudy. Etc, etc. It also depends if you want a smaller f or a larger one. The larger ones tend to have a better low register, but they also tend to sound more like a c tuba (which defeats the purpose of having an f in my opinion). Smaller f tubas in general take a little more getting use to in the lower register. If you player a smaller c tuba you should get a smaller f tuba. I play on an old alexander that took a while to get use to, but I will never have to buy another horn. It took me a couple years to figure out and get what I wanted, but it was well worth the wait. I'm not recommending these horns to you because it is hard to come by a great one. You have to find what is right for you. I know you are pressed for time so Good luck!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I must ask, for those that have played both F and E-flat tubas, what would make you choose one over the other? Just say both horns played identically, what would be the advantage of one key over the other?

Really, I think that there is no advantage of one over the other. They each require you to push valves up and down!

Seriuosly, if you are spending most of your time playing band music, MAYBE an Eb tuba would be a better choice. The problem is that there are so many exceptions to that rule, that you can hardly call it a rule!

It is undeniable that Eb fingerings lie easily, in a very flat key signature, but ideally, that should not matter, as we should be equally adept in all keys, regardless of the key of the horn.

It has been said many times before, but when choosing a bass tuba (Eb/F), go for the one with the sound (and then deal with the fingers!).

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Well, It really depends on the specifics:

1) How big is the band?

2) Are you the only tuba in band, or part of a section?

• a) If you are alone, refer to question (1).
  b) If you are part of a section, where the other players have contrabasses, a bass tuba can add a little extra clarity to the section.

3) How is your relationship with the conductor?

• a) See what kind of sound concept the conductor wants.
  b) Some conductors have mistaken impressions of what Eb's can do.