I need some advice/opinions on F and E-flat tubas.

[dwerden]

One of my students at the University of Minnesota is looking for an E-Flat tuba that might take the place of a CC and an F. I asked advice from some of the finest professional tuba players in this country. The summary is posted on my blog:
http://dwerden.com/blog3/display_blog.c ... m=4&y=2005

If that address is too long, just go to my home page:
http://www.dwerden.com

and find the News link. The blog can be accessed from there.

Comments are welcomed!!

Dave Werden
U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba, U. of MN

[Gorilla Tuba]

The great thing is that you currently have CC tuba that will probably fit most of your current needs. As you can tell by the advice of the posters on this site, there are many fine Eb and F choices available. I highly recommend waiting until the fall and asking your new teacher, Tom Stein. It may be wise to put your money in a savings account right now and wait until you can afford something really great... not settling for something just because it was more affordable. Chances are, as an incoming freshman, you will be better off mastering the CC than learning a new keyed instrument. I may be wrong... you probably do play very well, but it can't hurt to wait and get the advice of your mentor for the next 4 years (at least).

[Gorilla Tuba]

I'm actually going to be a grad student. I feel as well that I need to wait and speak to him about it, but then I'm worried that I'll be behind the game if I don't already have some skill on an F or E-flat before I start.

Please forgive my presuming you as an undergrad. I think you'll really enjoy UMKC. I tinkered with F tubas while in the Army (before my undergrad) , but never got comfortable with 'em. It wasn't until my 2nd year of grad school that I really decided to plat F tuba. I wouldn't think that there is any reason to rush it.

[RyanSchultz]

I struggled for several years to find the right F for me. I agree with Alan, the Mirafones are hard to beat. If you want an "F" I would start there. I've had my Mirafone for a little over a year and love it.

[CJ Krause]

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[Steve Inman]

Just a FYI, I noticed that Baltimore Brass has a used MW2141. It's pretty rare to find a used one, so I'm sure it won't last long...

WARNING: find out how old any used MY2141 horn is. For the first few (several?) years, they had a reputation of having intonation issues. If you plan to purchase one used, be sure to arrange for a trial period so you can check it out with a tuner before buying. Fortunately, all of the reputible brass shops, including Baltimore Brass, will allow you to return a horn if you aren't satisfied.

The first "new" Eb horns I seriously tried were a Besson 981, a Besson 983 and a MW2141 -- several years ago. I wanted to buy the 2141, but the octave Eb's were not in tune. It had multiple, noticeable intonation problems. So I decided to take the 983 at that time. According to multiple sources, MW made some changes and the newer 2141's are typically quite good.

Good luck,

[MikeMason]

even with your valve requirements, i think you should try the yam yfb 621 before you buy the meinl.all the notes work on the yamaha...

[Rick Denney]

I prefer rotary valves because they are a lot more gentle on my arthitis.

I'm looking for something with a good high range. If the higher notes are going to be a problem, then I might as well play everything on my C. My biggest concern with the low range is playing in tune and without a lot of stuffiness. I know most F tubas are questionable with the lower notes, but as long as I can play them and it feels like they are supposed to be there, I'm okay.

I think a 3/4 size horn would be ideal because I want the instrument for solo and quintet playing. I don't need it for any large ensembles. Like I mentioned in my first post here, I'm looking for a small, light instrument, something I can play for a while without exhausting myself.

Personally, I think these requirements are mutually exclusive. I haven't played any rotary F tubas that didn't require a different approach to the low register, and that weren't huge. The small rotary F's require an even more particular approach with the low register. The Meinl-Weston 182 is the only instrument that bears consideration with these requirements.

But I think your last sentence overrides your other issues. If you want an instrument that is easy to play and easy to hold, the Yamaha 621 that others have mentioned really can't be beat. It is not an orchestral F tuba and will not project the way a big F will. But I have played mine in quintet for many years and also played it in a tuba quartet. The latter application usually required standing, and the group played a theme-park gig for a year that required standing in brutally hot outdoor conditions. The little Yamaha was completely effect for those applications, having a voice of its own that can go trombonelike when needed for baroque quintet arrangements, be a clear middle voice in a tuba quartet, and play the low notes like a contrabass. My B&S carries better and I prefer its sound out front when played with a large ensemble, but it is definitely, positively NOT easier to play than the 621.

Rick "who finds the 621 ergonomics to be comfortable and the intonation as good as the alternatives" Denney

[Mark Preece]

You just can't go wrong with e Besson 983! A very versitile horn!

[Mark Preece]

It's obviously a very personal thing, but man, I'm really enjoying my 983 Eb. I like the ergonomics of it, and I'm really surprised how strong the low register is for such a small tuba. But more than that, it just has the smoothest, most even middle register of almost any tuba I've ever played. I think that the longer leadpipe, combined with the somewhat open wrap on the various valve slides, contributes to the low range being pretty decent for a compensating tuba. I think it's a near ideal brass quintet tuba. Then again, I generally prefer bigger m.p.'s, and have always had a much stronger low range than high range. I also like it that it's fairly easy to play the 983 while standing - something that's near impossible with the 3 + 1 compensating tubas.

Barry Guerrero

Amen to that, Barry! My horn shares these same characteristics, and I also agree with the ergonomics of the horn. I have played standing up many times, and the 983 really is easy to play this way!

[Lew]

It's obviously a very personal thing, but man, I'm really enjoying my 983 Eb. I like the ergonomics of it, and I'm really surprised how strong the low register is for such a small tuba. But more than that, it just has the smoothest, most even middle register of almost any tuba I've ever played. I think that the longer leadpipe, combined with the somewhat open wrap on the various valve slides, contributes to the low range being pretty decent for a compensating tuba. I think it's a near ideal brass quintet tuba. Then again, I generally prefer bigger m.p.'s, and have always had a much stronger low range than high range. I also like it that it's fairly easy to play the 983 while standing - something that's near impossible with the 3 + 1 compensating tubas.

Barry Guerrero

Amen to that, Barry! My horn shares these same characteristics, and I also agree with the ergonomics of the horn. I have played standing up many times, and the 983 really is easy to play this way!

I agree that I love the way my 983 plays and sounds, but I don't think that it would be the right horn for this person. Although I find the valve position very comfortable, the piston stroke may be a little too much for someone with arthritic hands.

[tubagirl5]

My advice would be to listen to great players play f tubas and to choose a horn similar or exactly the same to what you like best. If you love Gene Pokorney's playing get a PT-10 or 15. If you love Alan Baer get a Miraphone. If you love Mike Roylance get a Rudy. Etc, etc. It also depends if you want a smaller f or a larger one. The larger ones tend to have a better low register, but they also tend to sound more like a c tuba (which defeats the purpose of having an f in my opinion). Smaller f tubas in general take a little more getting use to in the lower register. If you player a smaller c tuba you should get a smaller f tuba. I play on an old alexander that took a while to get use to, but I will never have to buy another horn. It took me a couple years to figure out and get what I wanted, but it was well worth the wait. I'm not recommending these horns to you because it is hard to come by a great one. You have to find what is right for you. I know you are pressed for time so Good luck!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I must ask, for those that have played both F and E-flat tubas, what would make you choose one over the other? Just say both horns played identically, what would be the advantage of one key over the other?

Really, I think that there is no advantage of one over the other. They each require you to push valves up and down!

Seriuosly, if you are spending most of your time playing band music, MAYBE an Eb tuba would be a better choice. The problem is that there are so many exceptions to that rule, that you can hardly call it a rule!

It is undeniable that Eb fingerings lie easily, in a very flat key signature, but ideally, that should not matter, as we should be equally adept in all keys, regardless of the key of the horn.

It has been said many times before, but when choosing a bass tuba (Eb/F), go for the one with the sound (and then deal with the fingers!).

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Well, It really depends on the specifics:

1) How big is the band?

2) Are you the only tuba in band, or part of a section?

• a) If you are alone, refer to question (1).
  b) If you are part of a section, where the other players have contrabasses, a bass tuba can add a little extra clarity to the section.

3) How is your relationship with the conductor?

• a) See what kind of sound concept the conductor wants.
  b) Some conductors have mistaken impressions of what Eb's can do.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Z-tuba,

Would I ever have a chance to even play an E-flat tuba in band? I don't know one director that'd ever let me play a smaller tuba when I have access to a C tuba.

Depends on the size of the band, and the size of the tuba section -- we (Kalamazoo Concert Band) have 1 Eb (Besson 983) out of 9 tubas, and I think it'd work well if we had 1/3 to 1/2 Eb and/or F tubas. The sound of the Eb "goes well" with the contrabasses, and bridges the "gap" between the contras and the euphs.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... I'd love to play an E-flat in band though. That'd be a lot of fun.

Couldn't hurt to ask!

[Steve Inman]

Next time you play a march, with music written for "Eb and BBb Basses", take the music up to the director and tell him you'd like to try it on Eb tuba. Play the upper divided notes and then just keep on doing this for all of your music. (Just "forget" to put it back down again ....)

Enjoy,

[charlieJ]

I have played Eb's for almost 40 years with an English brass band influenced leaning towards Bessons. I do all kinds of work exclusively with effers. I've played all the effers out there except the PT-22s. I recently played the MW 2141s at Balt Brass, as well as the Willson 3200 they have. I also went to Dillons and played Bessons and the MW 2040. I've played many others in the recent past.

I really like the Besson 983 sound but do not care for the valve reach ergonomics. Works for many, but not me. But I absolutely loved the MW 2040 at Dillons - it really resonates, is well centered and can blast when required! After spending a week on the east coast and playing about 20 horns, this one brought me in. It played better (for me) than the other effers, and it was also the cheapest at $4295 (amazing). As a 4-valve rotor it gets overlooked. Frankly, I was shocked by the abilities of this horn and the only reason it is not in my stable was that I went to the east coast on business, not to buy a horn (Darn it!).

Instruments are such personal decisions that if I was you, I'd throw a sleeping bag in the car, add a cooler with drinks and sandwiches, and hit the road. Go to the Tuba Exchange, Balt Brass, and Dillons. You can do this in a couple of days from Florida. Heck, add an extra day or two and hit the WWBW store. Play them all and have fun with it. The right instrument for you may be the totally wrong instrument for someone else. Play them all - the right one will sing to you! Fancy the chances of a Besson brass band effer player falling for a rotory German horn...

You are looking at a significant $$ investment so take the time and play them all - you have time before school starts again.

Best of luck!