Equipment Advise

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andrew the tuba player
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Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

Hi guys. I have a nice Conn 52j that I really like. But since I have decided to not go the music major route, the only ensemble I will playing in is a British Brass Band. I can transpose but I'd rather focus on the music than the transpositon. That and this group is very particular about instrumentation as they want to be authentic.

I have been considering selling or trading the 52j for a 4 or 5/4 BBb to be able to support the group and be in the right key. The one I have been looking into is the Wessex Excelsior. I haven't been able to find a lot of info on it other than the promotional which looks good. I was wanting to see if anyone who has played or owed one could let me know how well they play and hold up over time. Also if it's comparable to the 52j in terms of quality. Other suggestions are welcome as well. I don't really have any cash to put with it so it would have to be a straight trade or about the same value as the 52j.

Thanks.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by hup_d_dup »

There is an advantage to having players in each section having matching instruments. But this advantage cannot be heard unless the players are already playing at a very high level indeed.

Phil Smith started a British brass band at U of Georgia only three years ago and it is already placing well in national competitions. They are not using matching instruments and Phil says that it doesn't bother him in the least. Mr. Smith grew up in brass band culture and has been involved with brass bands for decades.

By the way, many of the top British brass bands have matching instruments because they were provided by the band.

Andrew, I know you are not determining the policy for the band your are referring to, but it does sound like they may have expectations that are unreasonable. Before you rush to get an instrument that you may not need, perhaps you can play with the band for a while and see how well you can make the horn you have fit in with the group.

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andrew the tuba player
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

I have given thoght to that. A lot of the instruments are provided including our 1st chair BBb.I just feel that a BBb would be more useful to me as this group is the only one I'll be playing with. The only other group that I'd be able to get into right now would be our community band if I ever get on the right work schedule and they dont care what you play. As much as I love the Conn it seems that CC just isn't what need.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by Mark »

andrew the tuba player wrote:I have a nice Conn 52j that I really like. But since I have decided to not go the music major route, the only ensemble I will playing in is a British Brass Band. I can transpose but I'd rather focus on the music than the transpositon.
Whether the tuba is CC or BBb you will still have to transpose.

Some of the best US-based brass bands I have seen use CC tubas. And, they don't match.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

Older 3+1-comp. "Besson" tubas
Would you be referring to the ones that are tall and shaped similarly to the yamaha YBBs?
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

Whether the tuba is CC or BBb you will still have to transpose.
While this is true, Bb treble clef would be much easier on a BBb than on a CC. I played last season on it and I can do it but I would be much better on a BBb. And I'm not the one who cares if the horns match or not. That's always been a part of this group. They want to be very traditional down to all of the horns are also silver. The only reason I got the spot was because the last player left suddenly and i was suggested. I would really rather not loose the spot as I've wanted to get into this group for quite a while.
Last edited by andrew the tuba player on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

I always thought that the YBB was based off of them. I would like to find one to play test. I started out on a YBB321 which while it wasnt spectacular, it wasnt horrible either so i figure that the besson being a much better horn all around plus being compensated would be a good player.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by hup_d_dup »

bloke wrote: There's a whole bunch of anti-top-action bias out there these days, though...
Yes, but I haven't seen that in bands with the British instrumentation . . . they seem to love top-action.

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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

I Iike the idea of the Bessons but i think I'd prefer it as a 4 valve as it will be my new work horse horn. How does the Wessex stack up to them? The biggest reason I'm interested in it is because Wessex seems to be making great horns and if that one is good then it's in a nice setup. That and it's new so I wouldn't have to worry about valve rebuilds and such for a long time.

I need to find some horns to play test. It may be hard though as there aren't a lot of music shops around me.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by ken k »

The BBb equivalent to your 52 would be the King 2341 or any of the Chinese copies. These are generally very decent instruments with good tone and intonation.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by Jess Haney »

Hey Andrew,

I have been in brass bands for 14 years and I can give you some insight if you wish. It really boils down to personal preference but BBb is much easier and works better on the fingers. I can also give you some horns to try. If you are stuck to a budget Wessex and the Schiller Elite line of Bbs as well Sterling offer some great horns for the value. The Excelsior has a very long lead-pipe and is difficult to control in some registers and was mouthpiece specific. It is much more comfortable than the large comps but I found it hard to control effectively.The bulls-eye was very small. If you are looking into the compensated BBbs the Schiller Bb Elite compensated tuba was a great horn that I played at Jim Laabs music last year. The Schiller Elite miraphone 191 rotary copy was also an astonishing horn playing very close to the copy its designed from. Both under $3500. The JP Sterling is the same horn as the Schiller Bb comp but with some modifications in brass alloy and lead-pipe. The New Wessex 1291 copy as well as the 6/4 Bb are great contenders as the sound was big, full and pronounced. More-so with the 1291. The 6/4 may be too big to have clarity for very technical passages in grade 5 and 6 music. Used miraphone 1291s and 191s come around from time to time and can be had for $4000-$6000 depending on seller and condition. these are very popular with the bulk of tubas at NABBA being 5/4 BBbs and CCs. There are others to be had for higher price brackets but those horns I mentioned previously are a good place to start.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by tubalux »

I started out playing non-compensating Fs and Cs through uni... then switched to compensating Bbs & Ebs Besson Sovereign / Yamaha Neo, and THEN I got myself a Conn 25J.

For me it's pretty much the perfect Brass Band BBb. And they're cheap 2nd hand. And if you're in the USA it seems (from posts in the for sale section) that there's another one for sale every month.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by TheGoyWonder »

YBB-321 would be a good choice, it's cheap and the right aesthetic. Bland, but deep and the Eb basses will be providing color (and then some). only problem is a 1st valve note that is flat (middle Ab) I'm sure something could be rigged up to correct that.
The real-deal Besson BBb has more potential but they much less likely than Yamaha to have tight valves.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

I'm not sure how they would feel about rotary valves. It would make the search a lot easier if that were an option. I will email them and find out.

I've been keeping am eye out for the bessons as I've heard alot of good things here and elsewhere. How hard are they to come by in silver?

As far as the price point I wohld have to line it up with what my 52j is worth. Its in great shape so it shohld be worth a bit. I'd like to find a trade and for go the sell and buy bit but if i can't that's what I'll do.

That being said the 52j is my work horse so I'd need to fimd something that can keep up with it. I've owned a 25j and now own a 20j and even though thwy are great horns I'm not sure that 2 big Conns would be the way to go. Likewise i "grew up" on a Ybb 321 and it was a decent horn but not up to par with the 52j.
Thanks for all the advise thus far.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by tofu »

bloke wrote: more specifically to your question: I know of no originally silver plated Besson tubas from that era that were "bright" silver...only "satin" silver.
I don't disagree with any of your post. I've never seen an original bright silver Besson either. I do own one though that is either a '69 -'70 -a 3 valve comp New Standard I bought just out of college for brass band playing and had it completely rebuilt back in '82 including the valves by Allied in Elkhorn when they were still in the repair business. I had it replated bright silver, because I thought it would be easier to maintain than the frosted silver. While I haven't done any brass band playing in a long time, and really don't use it now for my current gigs I still hang on to it because it was a good player before the rebuild and came out a superb player after. Looking back, I can't believe how little they charged me. They even rebuilt the case. I was working in WI at the time and ever couple weeks I'd show up with another mouthpiece for them to replate. I think in total they must have done five. I dealt with one of the Getzens who was into hot rods at the time, as was I, and they were great to work with. It was really interesting to see the process and progress every couple of weeks on the rebuild. I must have been a PITA for them. They surely could not have made any money on that job. I was completely blown away with the work they did on it - just superb.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

I don't think they care too much about satin vs bright. That being said I'm the only one with a satin silver horn in the group so it still may have been part of the need vs want situation. But you can't really get any more british brass than an old besson comp. So I dont think they'd mind. (In fact i believe most of the band owned instruments are bessons.)

I do see what you are saying about being wary of "over hauled" intruments especially from ebay and whatnot. The only way I'd really look into one is if it was on here and the seller could tell me who did it and how it was overhauled. A shiny boat anchor ain't gonna make a lot of music.
I'm not sure that 2 big Conns would be the way to go.
I know i made this post only a few hours ago but it piqued my intrest at work. I do often find myself wishing I had mine with me. I may pull it out this week and play some of last seasons music and see how it does. The biggest thing will be to see how controlled and consise i can make 16th (and a few 32nd) note runs at brisk tempos.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by tofu »

bloke wrote:Yours is the rare instrument that received a valve rebuild as part of the restoration...because you owned it prior to the restoration.

I see instruments flow out of some of these eBay-selling overhaul mills that are only cosmetically restored...and then they are brought to me with their new owners asking why they play "funny".

That having been said, I'm really glad for you that you ended up with what you judge to be a good valve rebuild job out of Wisconsin.
Yeah...it's like cars & houses - shiny sells - meanwhile the internals (typically the most expensive stuff to fix/replace) suck.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by TheGoyWonder »

Well it's a numbers game. I've never encountered a yamaha, even beat, without tight valves. Bessons of New Standard era, even when pretty, will probably have flaky valves. I've had one with tight valves once, it was still tricky to play (loved its ff tone though)
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by andrew the tuba player »

Well i got the 20j out and it did pretty well. Mine still has some kinks to work out so it doesnt make it easy on you.

I did hear back from the band and rotary horns are fine. My 52j is most likely being sold tomorrow and i have my eye on an older silver Mirafone 186 4u. It has some plating wear (the usual Mirafone "wrist strip") but it has also just been fully serviced and checked over by Dan Oberloh so it should be good to go. I've always said I'd own a silver 186 one day and that day may finally be at hand.
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Re: Equipment Advise

Post by imperialbari »

If the band can afford having strict opinions on the pitch of their tubas, then they also can afford buying you a tuba of the desired pitch.

Not that I don’t have my own opinions of non-standard tubas in brass bands. The problems I have met are all related to sounds pointing out of the tutti by being too bright or by being too heavy.

Some players of rotary F tubas play too brightly and edgy to support the band.

Some players of huge CC tubas inch their ways onto the Eb chairs, because that part is so easily read by people only knowing the bass clef. A bad idea because the bass line gets way too fat and heavy.

Some lighter rotary BBb tubas used for playing the BBb part cannot provide sufficient support for the band, and when the players push them, the sound gets too edgy.

If you play in tune with your section mates and don’t overblow, then I see no problem in using your Conn.

Phil Smith’s attitude cited above here is wise,

Klaus
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