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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby Stryk » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:27 pm

bloke wrote:
Stryk wrote:I can see where body chemistry may cause plating to disintegrate, but don't think normal wear can do that.


Many people set their mouthpieces down on surfaces and/or play with beard stubble.


That much be some industrial strength stubble!!! :tuba: :tuba:
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby bloke » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:21 pm

I deal with silver plating nearly every day - particularly during the summer - un-destroying sousaphones (as "buying silver sousaphones" - based on how they look in pictures - has been in-vogue for a few decades, now). Silver plating can very easily be scratched with a piece of clean flannel.

When people buy and unpack brand-new bright silver plated instruments, that's usually the very last time those instruments sport "mirror" finishes.

The standard thickness of silver plating of most new instruments is about 0.0004" (an "appearance" dimension: enough to classify as "plating" rather than a "wash"). Any more than that, the dimensions begin to change, and things begin to not fit. ' same with many mouthpieces... Even .0004" is going to change the cup width by close to .001", and .001" of silver plating - of course - will change a mouthpiece's cup width by approximately .002"...etc...

...the point being that it doesn't take "forever" (with hundreds or thousands of hours of rubbing against a person's skin) to wear .0004" of silver - a very soft metal - down to the substrate. A careless polishing person (or one who wasn't informed that some silver plated surface had already been buffed several times in the past) can buff away this much silver in a matter of seconds (like "three or so").
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby Stryk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:09 am

bloke wrote: A careless polishing person (or one who wasn't informed that some silver plated surface had already been buffed several times in the past) can buff away this much silver in a matter of seconds (like "three or so").


I have purchased a couple old Mt. Vernon 18s that had absolutely NO silver left on them, so I know this can happen. I just didn't dream that beard stubble could do that. I do prefer stainless for several reason, but sound isn't one of them. I see no difference in that respect.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby Casca Grossa » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:32 am

Buy a Blokepiece and you will see why stainless steel is better ;-)
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby Doug Elliott » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:17 am

In machining, as in drawing tubing, comparing the effect of different materials isn't always totally valid because the exact same manufacturing process can end up with different dimensional results.

That can also be true of two examples made from the SAME material, but it's exaggerated when you change materials.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:06 am

Casca Grossa wrote:Buy a Blokepiece and you will see why stainless steel is better ;-)


I sincerely appreciate the endorsement, but the question (with over a thousand viable combinations) "which ONE is better".

Again: interior dimensions are it, as far as a mouthpiece is concerned.
stainless steel rims: durable, more scratch-resistant, about the same weight/density as brass

I briefly experimented with Lexan cups and shanks (as the durability and retention-of-finish of the stainless steel RIM is the main thing that is important to me), but the threads tend to grab with Lexan (possibly in sort-of the same way that Lexan rims seem to grab at our skin...??).

Different cutting tools are used for different materials.
ex: Just for sh_ts and giggles, the prototype (i.e. "Let's just see what happens") Lexan shanks that were experimentally run (since it wasn't important) were cut with the tools used to cut stainless steel. They looked like crap, and end chipped off of one of them. :|

Dimensions change if they are not controlled. That's true with a house, car, a waistline, a tree, and just about everything.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby royjohn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:14 pm

I think this is an interesting discussion, but maybe the phrase "cannot be determined from the information given" applies here. The depth of silver plate is about 0.0005" and manufacturing tolerances on a mpc which has an inside diameter of over 1.30" is nowhere near this accurate. As far as buffing, it takes some heavy handed doing to buff off the silver plate on a rim. Not saying it isn't easy to do if you are so inclined or if you have no skill in buffing, but the truth is that silver plate, while it will acquire myriad micro-scratches, will hold up pretty well with reasonable care. and could be buffed to a shine and replated without much loss of dimension.

I have silver plated, gold plated and stainless mouthpieces here, all used. All show some scratching, albeit the stainless scratches are smaller than those in the plated mpcs. However, all still slide on my face with the ounces and pounds of pressure typically used with a tuba without that much difference. Can I feel the difference between them? Yes. Is it that significant. IDK.

Absent some kind of scientific research, probably with an artificial embouchure, I think these discussions will remain a matter of opinion and preference and you know what they say about opinions.

Sitting back now to await the smart-ass comments.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby Casca Grossa » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:23 pm

bloke wrote:
Casca Grossa wrote:Buy a Blokepiece and you will see why stainless steel is better ;-)


I sincerely appreciate the endorsement, but the question (with over a thousand viable combinations) "which ONE is better".

Again: interior dimensions are it, as far as a mouthpiece is concerned.
stainless steel rims: durable, more scratch-resistant, about the same weight/density as brass

I briefly experimented with Lexan cups and shanks (as the durability and retention-of-finish of the stainless steel RIM is the main thing that is important to me), but the threads tend to grab with Lexan (possibly in sort-of the same way that Lexan rims seem to grab at our skin...??).

Different cutting tools are used for different materials.
ex: Just for sh_ts and giggles, the prototype (i.e. "Let's just see what happens") Lexan shanks that were experimentally run (since it wasn't important) were cut with the tools used to cut stainless steel. They looked like crap, and end chipped off of one of them. :|

Dimensions change if they are not controlled. That's true with a house, car, a waistline, a tree, and just about everything.


One of the great things about your line are the number of combinations available. I do consider the combination I own the best though. This was my first ever stainless steel purchase for a mouthpiece. I considered a few others but when this one arrived, I knew my search was over. I love the feel of the rim, better than any gold plated mouthpiece I have ever owned, and this particular combination gives me everything I ever wanted as far as the concept I've had in my head all these years. If I end up ever getting a bass tuba, (would love one of those JP F tubas but way too broke to justify one right now) I would probably just get the standard version of the rim I have rather than the Profundo and I feel I would have the perfect bass tuba mouthpiece. I should say that I only play for my own enjoyment. I don't really gig any more other than an occasional fill in for a friend, but I can take a month off from practice and feel like I didn't lose a thing and this mouthpiece is the only one that ever made me feel like that. Clarity, focus, accuracy are much better than any other mouthpiece I have ever owned. The horn speaks easily in every register. So I say, throw down the bucks and work with Joe to find the perfect mouthpiece for you. It's hiding somewhere in those thousand or so combinations.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:44 pm

Were I even more bull-headed than I am, I would ONLY offer the #2 profile rim...because ( :lol: ) it's "the best" ( :arrow: in bloke's view :wink: ). ...but (why...I'm shocked! :shock: ) it's obvious that not everyone agrees with me. :|

That having been said, there are people who eventually try someone's else #2 profile rim, ask me why I didn't insist on them trying the #2 rim when they were purchasing their mouthpiece, and (well...) end up switching.
That rim profile is our biggest seller, so I honestly believe that I'm on to something. :roll:

========================================

' time required to buff silver plating on a mouthpiece rim surface down to substrate...??
Loan me your mouthpiece, and I'll make you a video. :tuba:
---------------------------------------------------------
mouthpiece tolerances...??
' all depends on the zeal and abilities regarding the attention to detail of the manufacturer, the quality of their equipment, and how well-maintained is the equipment. "All mouthpiece tolerances vary more than _____" sorta begins to sound like, "All _________ people are _______".

bloke "Quite a while back, I bumped up the exterior of our euro shank size .001" radius and bumped the british shank size down .001" radius...but that's impossible, isn't it? ...because what's inside someone's else claimed margin of error."
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby the elephant » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:11 pm

My margin of error is 1.0000"...
In the multiverse there is a TubeNet where we talk about how we greased our cat with toothpaste and hot sauce so it would fly better in the rain. Even then someone would ask whether the cat was lacquered or silver plated.
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Re: Benefits of Stainless Steel over Brass

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:15 pm

the elephant wrote:My margin of error is 1.0000"...


That, roughly, is mine - when playing. The buttons are, roughly, 1.0000" apart, are they not?
Can there be THAT much difference, really, between mashing #2 or mashing #3 ?

bloke "Tuba players, when playing very fast passages, just concentrate on rhythm, and you'll be fine. :lol: "
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