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"Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms...)

Postby DouglasJB » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:17 pm

Okay, so this is something that I have heard many people say, and as we read post on here "have to switch to CC, or must play F". I understand there are certain "traditions" that people tend to follow, but should someone, a student looking at an under graduate or graduate program be told "no you can't play that, you have to play this instead" if the student is playing on a horn of professional quality that is adequate for the playing they do.

I feel that if a student is happy with, preforms at an adequate level using a professional quality horn they should not be told "you cannot go on unless you switch"

Thoughts?
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Dan Schultz » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 pm

I'm 71 years old. No one is going to tell me what to play or how to play it. I think I would still feel the same if I was 18 and ready to shell out big bucks for a music degree.

The short answer is "it doesn't make a bit of difference".
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Steve Marcus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:23 pm

If you wanted to play in Vienna or Berlin or...
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby DouglasJB » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:26 pm

I agree with you Dan! If it works, why should it matter?
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby the elephant » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:28 pm

Some professors make a nice kickback when they direct their students to purchase certain horns new. If they cannot afford a new one, a used one will work since this can be added to the legend of the studio for use of that specific brand or model.

Most professors do NOT get such a kickback, however, they see certain professors who do and believe that "that guy knows what is right" never realizing the paid-off professor helped pay off his living room remodel or part of a car or whatever for his recommendations. So they parrot this other professor because they obviously "know" something and they, too, wish to appear to "know" something.

We have a few horns out there right now that are wildly popular based on a legend built by some of these professors and unwittingly passed on by their students or fans to the next generation of students.

There are some mavericks who teach a kid with whatever they own and try to help them find the best horn they can afford, when they can afford it. But we genuinely *do* have some of these professors sending home letters to parents telling them that "Johnny must have the following equipment in order to be in my studio" and I am not making this up. We have posts here about that very topic that go way back.

I tell a kid that what they have is inadequate when it is a genuine impediment AND they are foolish enough to try and go into performance. I am very proud to have steered about 50 kids away from a BM in performance, with a few scared (rightfully) into something where they will live a stable life and be able to provide for a family. I scare the hell out of them about doing what I do and the harshness of that life.

On the flip side I encourage the odd kid who has the needed talent to get in the door and the industriousness to see some success, and those kids I steer toward lots of possible horns, based on what they want to do as a player, and I am blunt in what I think of any horn they bring to me if they get that far. I am very harsh, but I am also quite supportive. I would never dream of telling anyone that they needed a certain horn to be successful. I am, however, prone to bagging on what they have and how it hampers what they are trying to say through the horn.

I do not like people who steer children to super spendy horns just so they can make a buck. I think that is despicable.

And the drones out there will cite tradition and all that. I am telling you that you can play an orchestra job in the US on whatever you like. Period. There are NO contracts out there that specify a brand of tuba, a model of tuba, a valve type or configuration, or a key. NONE. You have to sound right and that is all. You need a horn that allows you to sound right in timbre, projection, clarity and range extremes and tonal centers. This differs with every face, every set of teeth, every tongue shape. You can play a full time gig on one horn, but that will make your life needlessly hard, and you will not be pleased with your sound or clarity on many works if you just have the one horn. It is 100% up to the player to bring whatever horn will make them sound the way they feel they need to (or whatever the MD wants if he has an opinion about tuba tone, which is rare).

I got by on two horns for many years because my former MD only programmed stuff that worked on those horns. The current MD plays a wider array of stuff that includes much heavier and lighter tuba parts, so I now use five horns to do my job. I am older and these make me happy with my product. I would not have seen a need for some of these horns back in the 1990s with what I was being asked to do. I got my horns based on actual need and not because my teacher told me I would need to win a gig.

I beat one of those types of guys for my gig and I only used a single horn that did not even belong to me. The committee liked me better and offered me the job. I did not "win" it. I earned it by playing how they preferred. (I did not even use a "popular" horn. I just played as well as I was able and they preferred that to how the other candidates played that day.

Not one of the committee members mentioned "sound" or "tone" in their comments. I have the sheets from that day for all of the candidates from all nine committee members, and not one player there gave a rats butt about so-called tuba tone color or what key my horn was in or that I had rotary valves or any other such silliness we obsess over here on TN. The comments were 100% about time, rhythm, note length, direction, intonation, sense of style, dynamics, etc. It is assumed that you have a great sound if you are out taking auditions, so no one cares what horns you play.

People who tell you stuff like you need a certain horn usually do NOT HAVE A FULL TIME ORCHESTRA GIG and THEY ARE LYING TO YOU.

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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby bloke » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:04 pm

GETTING a job playing somewhere is far more difficult than KEEPING a job playing somewhere.
Since "getting" a job seems so difficult (particularly to those who don't really quite understand how to go about it, or what it takes...regardless of whether it's a $1200/yr. job, a $12000/yr. job, or a 120000/yr. job), everyone discusses strategies related to "getting" a job...and refer to "getting" a job as having "won" it (an odd expression that I'm not sure I've seen in any other industry, but probably due to the fact that this process seems to many as if it's completely similar to "all-state", solo competitions, and the like).

To KEEP most jobs (past probation), a TUBA player needs to do these things:
- Always show up, and on time.
- If drunk, only be slightly drunk.
- Show up clean and in the proper outfit, and no detectable farting around the string players.
- Don't get into verbal or physical fights with colleagues, and don't start $h!t with (or ever chat with) management or the music director.
- Don't play in the rests, and play at least as well as the 10th-best player who was eliminated in the first round of your "winning" audition. Keeping pitches within 10c (high or low) of optimum pitch and attacking pitches no later than a 20th of a second later than the optimum time, avoids being called out, but all music directors expect to call out tuba players, as they are known to be dolts. If a tuba player is rarely called out, they are considered to be an "artist". If lost, do not look around, and maintain a thoughtful look on the countenance.

"type of tuba"...?? As DP would have said (were he still here...), "pfft".
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Donn » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:10 pm

Do you not need a somewhat shiny tuba?

(I mean, not as shiny as your shoes would need to be, for certain typical apparel, but ... at least, not the worn lacquer look.)
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby bloke » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:16 pm

Donn wrote:Do you not need a somewhat shiny tuba?

(I mean, not as shiny as your shoes would need to be, for certain typical apparel, but ... at least, not the worn lacquer look.)


I've been over-and-over this, but...

Lacquerless-bell tubas and lacquer-less bell/bottom bow/upper bow tubas are "I only care about the sound" tubas, which (simply) means this:
They had a very nice tuba, and had a very bad accident with that tuba.
It had to be taken apart to be repaired, which burned a significant amount of lacquer.
The repair shop doesn't spray lacquer, but can strip lacquer and buff...so the shop stripped the lacquer from the damaged parts and buffed out the (embarrassing to the owner) deep crease lines. Therefore (again), "I only care about the sound [even though I originally was attracted to this tuba because it was so nice and shiny]."

This can even be taken farther, with the tuba's owner discussing the salient characteristics of unlacquered bells (and, if it applies) unlacquered larger bows on tubas. ...perhaps even (if the creases were particularly bad, prior to the buffing) "thinner-gauge metal".
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Bowerybum » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:00 am

99.9999% of tuba players aren't going to have to worry about $120,0000/year jobs or for that matter $1200/year jobs in spite of what academia is telling them. The tuba is a big horn in a little world.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby kmorgancraw » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:50 am

I don't know about anyone else, but I find F tuba playing perpetually dissatisfying. It's like a Euphonium that weighs twice as much and plays half as well.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby bloke » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:07 pm

kmorgancraw wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I find F tuba playing perpetually dissatisfying. It's like a Euphonium that weighs twice as much and plays half as well.


I'm not lecturing you, and I don't blame you for making that statement. I understand why you're making it.
A whole bunch of F tubas are not very good, just as a whole bunch of most types of things aren't very good...but (as large a percentage of them as there are that are not good) it is still a generalization to label them all "bad"...

Further, "people who try to play an F tuba as if it were a BBb tuba" are not going to have much luck, and will probably label that F tuba (even if extraordinarily good) as "bad".

Were it not that this one made things extremely easy for me, I would have (having purchased it new in 1982) sold it decades ago. (I'm not known for holding on to dust collectors.) A couple of months ago, I spent an hour playing quartet music in a recital with these guys. The only time I switched to another instrument (cimbasso) was to play Slide Hampton's version of "Round Midnight".
btw...not UN-lacquered. simply: FAILED lacquer

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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Mark Finley » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:42 pm

kmorgancraw wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I find F tuba playing perpetually dissatisfying. It's like a Euphonium that weighs twice as much and plays half as well.



I get that. That's why I've always liked the Larger Eb's. It has a sound like a small CC, but still is more nimble like the F
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby tubalex » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:55 pm

People use smaller instruments because they are easier to play in nimble music. It's the exact same reason why professional trumpet players play C, E flat, and Piccolo trumpets. You lose something by switching from the big instrument to small instruments, in terms of depth and breadth of sound, but people who want to play their best make choices about finding the balance of ease of execution and the particular quality, depth, clarity and mass of sound of that matters to them.

An excellent player can play anything on anything, tuba-wise. Once your act is that well together, it's a perfectly legitimate thing to make decisions based on what makes your life easier, and what makes things closest to your ideal performance.

There are great players in every part of the world who do amazing things on whatever key of instrument they feel like playing, regardless of traditions or norms. They are not doing anything wrong by succeeding on instruments that are outside of their particular corner-of-the-world's mainstream. People who succeed on instruments that are part of their region's mainstream aren't doing anything wrong, either. If a player is satisfied with what they are doing, and how their equipment helps them do it, then there is the right answer.

I can play the Vaughan Williams and Symphonie Fantastique on C, hell I can play them on B-flat tuba and on euphonium, but it is EASIER on F tuba. There's plenty of lit that I play on C and on euphonium because it's easier on those instruments. What matters is my comfort level, balance between amount of practice and home life, and that what comes out of the bell is more or less what I wanted to be without excessive stress.

My music-major students are required by me to own a professional quality C tuba by the end of their sophomore year. I have signed off on them buying Instruments from as low as below $2000 to above $10,000, as long as it's not obviously a painful impact on their family. I require this because the level of literature that I am obligated to have them perform toward the end of their undergraduate studies is so advanced that it is, in my opinion, unreasonably difficult to ask them to play it on it B-flat tubas. Also, in my opinion a C tuba is an excellent all-around instrument, and will serve them well for the next five or six decades of their lives, whatever direction they take.

I encourage all my students to buy used instruments if it all possible, and I consider it a part of my job to help them find great professional used instruments at reasonable prices, focusing on the needs of the student, the quality of the instruments, but never, ever on the particular brand.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment previously expressed that picking up a smaller instrument and thinking it should play the same as a larger instrument but with an easier high register is not the wisest approach. They are different instruments, and if you do it the right way that is a good thing. Playing a string bass and a cello are in some ways very similar, but no one would expect them to feel or sound the same. In my opinion that difference should be celebrated.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby bloke » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:52 pm

You may wish to update the url on your bio:

http://www.music.utk.edu/faculty/lapins.php
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby tubalex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:23 am

This is a reply to a deleted reply to my post pointing out the excellent work of B-flat players from the past:

Please take a second look at my post.

No flunking here, no judgement of past or current successes, other than recognizing the validity of the success and the variety of paths to that success. It's just easier.

Just answering the original question as completely, honestly, and open to other perspectives as possible.

It's my job to get my students to success as effectively and efficiently as possible.

There are great B-flat players from this country and others, this time and past times, who could play circles around many C players today. The instrument doesn't make you a great player. It's just easier, most of the time, on most lit (not all the time and not on all lit) to play C.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby opus37 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:52 am

Many say an Eb with 4 or more valves is a do it all tuba. As an Eb player, I agree with this statement as long as you define what you are planning on playing. I believe that it is easier to support a concert band with a BBb (or maybe a C) and the orchestra stuff I play would be easier on a C. Selecting the horn for the music you plan to play does make things easier and likely with a more appropriate sound, but a good player can use the horn that works best for them too. The tone characteristics can very from manufacturer to manufacturer. Forcing a student to play a particular key or brand is a little uppity for my taste. Play what works for you and what you can afford, the rest is in the very fine details.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Uncle Markie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:52 am

I had a pretty decent freelance career playing the tuba in all kinds of situations, mostly commercial, and ended up playing in a nice little pops symphony for ten years. At no time did anyone ask what key my horn was in. That included employers like Henry Mancini, Ray Bloch, Leroy Holmes, Joel Herron, Paul Lavalle, Ringling Bros., Disney, and dozens of others. I never owned a CC tuba; while in college I played a Meinl-Weston Bell model CC for about a month that Mr. Bell had left with Don Butterfield on spec and hated the thing. Overweight, gruesomely out of tune to itself and not for me. I have friends for whom that was their perfect horn. In real life I matched the horn to the job at hand based on my own common sense, not the dictates of an academic, peer pressure, "fashion" - or the employer - with the exception of Paul Lavalle who insisted on a bell-front tuba.
If your teacher makes the make (or key) of instrument (or ditching the instrument you can currently afford) a condition of your continued study with him or her I would advise you to study elsewhere. The same thing goes for teachers that arbitrarily change students' mouthpieces, etc. Once you learn to play the instrument switching to another key, or design of horn is not that big of a deal down the road. There is a lot to know about tuba playing beyond the symphony orchestra repertoire - starting with the circle of fifths. In the words of Joe Novotny (NY Philharmonic for 25 years after Bell) who could seamlessly switch between CC, BBb and F - "Buy a tuba; learn to play it".
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby BrooklynBass » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:40 am

This is a subject I reflect on quite often and I can only share my experience of the receiving end of (strong) professor reccomendations.

I studied with with Dr. Gary Bird as a music major 2002-2006 (retired 2007). I very much respect Gary, as we all did, so when he "strongly encouraged" (read: intimidated) the Freshmen to learn CC tuba, I hastily, and to my parent's bewilderment, sold my Yamaha 641... a horn that by no means is a professional quality horn, but got me through high school, youth orchestra, and county/state band just fine. I also think it would have been just fine to get me through as a Music Ed major (especially the vanilla "BA in Music" I left IUP with). But, I have came to really enjoy CC tuba in college, and those are the fingerings hardwired into me now as a 30s weekend warrior. However, like many decisions in life, there are pros and cons.

CC Tuba Pros (this is personal experience only)
*Sight reading is easier (to me); coming from bass guitar, my brain understands the concept of raising/lowering "natural" pitches vs keeping track of adding/subtracting from the 2 already in the key of Bb. Somehow reading in Db & Gb is cake to me vs how I remember playing on Bb (regardless, it's all a mental game).
*(Slightly) better control of "lyrical" tessatura in the staff
*I can communicate notes/fingerings to the trumpet/alto/TC baritone players in my brass band like a boss (open = C baby!)
*I'm in the love with the sound and intonation playing on my current horn in CC. It's the "tuba sound in my head" and I feel more expressive on this horn than any other I've owned in any key. This one just happens to be a C tuba, so I'm sticking with it.

Cons (reasons I sometimes wish I never switched)
*The most playable CC tubas (ones with inherently good intonation and 5 valves) are more expensive when comparing apples to apples. This is a fact.
*I can't find a good CC sousaphone/helicon to save my life. I've passed on so many <$1K QUALITY USA sousa offers, it's becoming painful. I'll either be converting a 4V Buescher or King (if I can find one), or hoping that Jonathan's rumored CC helicon makes it into on the Wessex product line. Spending >$3K is in my future either way.
*If my horn has to go to the shop during Wind Symphony season, I'm screwed (plenty of BBbs to borrow in my network, but no CCs).
*Similar to the above, I can't (easily) pick up a loaner horn for a trad or sports gig without taking a dump on my reading ability.

Ryan "I totally realize many pro players play many horns in many keys in many different playing situations. Good or them. I work 50hrs at an office job and I'm just lucky I can squeeze in enough practice time to play well (enough) on the horn I have in the one key I'm most proficient on" H.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby Casca Grossa » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:43 pm

Play what you like, can afford, and can make the best, most in tune fart noises you are getting paid to make.
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Re: "Must play on ___ Key" opinions? (Possible can of worms

Postby bloke » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:52 pm

When there are two versions of the same model of tuba (rare, anymore, with Miraphone 186 being one of the few), the longer-bugle BBb will be more resonant, and the shorter/compacted/same-size bugle C will respond faster, just as with Bb and C trumpets.

Compacting a successful mostly-in-tune bugle by roughly 11% (Bb down to C) can result in additional intonation quirks...and/or amplifying existing ones...or maybe it won't...(??) This happens (again) with both trumpets and tubas. It's easier to monkey around with a trumpet, and some of the C instruments offered by trumpet manufacturers have nearly solved the C trumpets' (again: mostly compacted-bugle Bb trumpets) most common intonation problem, which is a sharp 4th partial (3rd space) C. C-tuba intonation problems seem to be all over the map, due to the vastly different shapes and sizes of tubas (when compared to very subtle differences in shapes and sizes of trumpets).

Today, most C-length tubas are stand-alone models. Far more of them are more successful, intonation-wise, than in the past (a very few: extraordinarily successful), but many of them (the majority...??) are still comically out-of-tune - particularly when considering some of their pricing. To avoid controversy, I avoid mentioning makes/models. If it pleases the reader to assume that their model is on the "extraordinarily successful" list, then so be it. :P
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