Wessex 6/4 CSO style

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PaulMaybery
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Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by PaulMaybery »

Spent a few hours at Wessex (in Michigan) today with Andy, mostly for auditioning the prototype of their new 6/4 CC.
Very sweet horn. Unlike other BATs that I've had my hands on lately, this one had intonation even better than their 5/4 Wyvern (which at least on mine is almost perfect.) It was also about 7 pounds ligther than the Wyvern, due to the bell, bow and large branch being all hand hammered. What I found unusual was that the open notes all lined up without say the flat 5th and sharp 6th. The bottom line G sat dead in tune and the high C did not have that tendency to ride a bit flat. The horn had an uncanny ease of speaking even in the very soft passages.

While with regard to sound, that is a huge gravitas or presence, a large variety of mouthpieces worked. However, I noticed that as the throats of those mouthpieces became larger, then the intonation quirks began to creep in.
I did not measure any of those mouthpieces, but for instance the Stofer-Geib that I have been using exclusively now on the CC since winter (which has a relatively moderate throat) or the Helleberg 2, or Monette Prana 94, offered a pitch spetrum that was as dead on a could be. Even that blasted 5th partial E centered/slotted nicely with the open fingering and the Eb, D, and Db worked with 2, 1 & 1/2 repectively. The PT-88+, the Chief, the G&W Baer all allowed for somewhat easier breadth of sound down low, but it was then that those problematic partials began going back to the old patterns.

I did, several months ago, let go of a very fine BAT that I was using, as just the weight of it was killing my back. At that time I recall we were discussing downsizing from 6/4 tubas to something that might seem a bit more manageable. I also seem to recall a certain consensus that BATs were quirky because of their size and extreme taper. Well, the can of worms just reopened for me with this new horn. Yes it is a huge horn, but being light in weight, and without those usual pitch quirks, it was a very flexible and user friendly instrument. Even with the 6/4size factor, there is no need to use a playing stand Also, at least on the prototype, the piston valves came vented. Thus most of the reasons for off loading a BAT, are not as valid with this instrument.

So much was I impressed with this tuba that I did put down a deposit for one of the production models that hopefully will be available this coming spring and I look forward to using it for most of my large ensemble playingt I feel that this particular 6/4 changes the playing field so to speak. No, it is not a 'do it all' tuba, but is indeed one that can be used for more than a lot of other heavy and large horns.

Wessex has some other surprises that will becoming out in the next year, instruments that are unique to Wessex.
Why do I seem so 'jazzed' about Wessex? Part of it is seeing a very high quality instrument emerge in an affordable price range. Of course with all the attention to quality and detail, these prices have moved beyond those of the 'clones.' But also, with the Wessex brand, we find that a certain amount of R&D is being performed, and tooling and mandrels being created fresh for each horn so that the best possible part can be made so as to not needing to share parts from other tubas, that are not necessarily ideal. This is all rather difficult costwise for many other manufacturers. For instance, when we see how they are able to produce instruments that function so well, it is then that I believe that Wessex has broken away from simply making the same instruments over and over. It also explains why so many of their horns play better that those that they referenced.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Ken Crawford »

So is it a "better" instrument, or just a "different" instrument than the Wyvern? Well I know it is different, but does one play/feel/respond better? Is response lighter/quicker or a little more muddied on the new 6/4 than the Wyvern? 7 pounds is a lot of brass.

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Presumably the outer bows and bell are the only thinner gauge portions of the horn. That is a lot less brass spread out to a lot more square inches. What is the thickness, one vs the other? Maybe Jonathan knows?
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by bort »

Maybe I can pay you a visit again next summer sometime...?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts -- will be interesting to see how these turn out! Compared to your BMB 6/4, what did you think of the valves, construction, etc.? I thought the pistons on your BMB were ridiculously smooth... but maybe that was because you worked on them?
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

kmorgancraw wrote:Presumably the outer bows and bell are the only thinner gauge portions of the horn. That is a lot less brass spread out to a lot more square inches. What is the thickness, one vs the other? Maybe Jonathan knows?
The hand-hammered bell and bows on the new 6/4 CC are 0.6mm high-grade brass, against 0.9mm high-grade brass for latest standard produced full size Wessex tuba like the Wyvern. This 6/4 was made with entirely new mandrels and the extra work involved in the hand hammering means we have a production limit on this tuba of only 2 per month. It is a true handmade tuba.
PaulMaybery wrote:Also, at least on the prototype, the piston valves came vented.
Vented valves will be standard, as they are now on most of the latest Wessex piston valve tubas/euphonium - even the new helicons.

I thank Paul for his review, although am not in the least surprised with his assessment having been playing this tuba for a month myself and had several pro players test in Europe. It is the best tuba I have ever played, and that includes compared to my 'handmade' Neptune, no kidding.

When I asked the factory to make this tuba, I told them to take no short cuts, make no compromises or cost savings - I wanted the best tuba to ever come out of China - and they certainly took me at my word!
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Steve Marcus »

Wyvern wrote:The hand-hammered bell and bows on the new 6/4 CC are 0.6mm high-grade brass, against 0.9mm high-grade brass for latest standard produced full size Wessex tuba like the Wyvern. This 6/4 was made with entirely new mandrels and the extra work involved in the hand hammering means we have a production limit on this tuba of only 2 per month. It is a true handmade tuba.
PaulMaybery wrote:Also, at least on the prototype, the piston valves came vented.
Vented valves will be standard, as they are now on most of the latest Wessex piston valve tubas/euphonium - even the new helicons.

I thank Paul for his review, although am not in the least surprised with his assessment having been playing this tuba for a month myself and had several pro players test in Europe. It is the best tuba I have ever played, and that includes compared to my 'handmade' Neptune, no kidding.

When I asked the factory to make this tuba, I told them to take no short cuts, make no compromises or cost savings - I wanted the best tuba to ever come out of China - and they certainly took me at my word!
Jonathan, you've stated that the new 6/4 CC will be entirely different from the new 6/4 Grand BBb tuba. In light of the superlatives about the 6/4 CC prototype, what are the differences in construction on the 6/4 BBb and what can we expect in comparison to the glowing report that Paul posted about the 6/4 CC?
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by PaulMaybery »

bort wrote:Maybe I can pay you a visit again next summer sometime...?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts -- will be interesting to see how these turn out! Compared to your BMB 6/4, what did you think of the valves, construction, etc.? I thought the pistons on your BMB were ridiculously smooth... but maybe that was because you worked on them?
Sure, just hollar and we can get together.

Some of this is a digression, but I did want to answer Bort's question on smooth valves and then also slide.)

The valves on the Wessex are very light and quick with this 6/4, working just fine with a lighter set of springs than on my Wyvern. The cap threading was also much better. Yes, the BMB valves were fast and quiet. I did my usual trick with them that I do with all new pistons, that being:(1) a light brasso polishing both on the piston itself and then (2) what could be construed as a gentle lapping (again with the brasso) on the pistons with them inside the casing. (3,). a thorough cleaning with valve oil (Ultra pure lamp oil) continually flushing/swabbing both pistons and casings until a white rag comes out clean. N.B. cleaning with a liberal appilication of valve oil can not be stressed enough as there always seems to be a small residue of brasso left behind. It does have an oil ingredient so water is not the best for clean-up.
(4) Follow this up with continued liberal oiling - wiping - oiling, often several times a day if you play a lot (again until traces of black no longer appear on the surface of piston or casing. "A clean valve is a happy valve"
(5) Contiunally observe that the valve stem is not binding in its whole in the top valve cap. Valve stems on most modern tubas sit on the the valve guide, doing double duty holding it in place. It is easy for a little torque to drive the stem off center, thus causing it to bind. Also most modern tuba pistons have a rather substantial or robust stem (needed to compress the guide assembly) which often translates to a smaller gap between the stem and the valve cap.

It is a bit of a chore setting up a new horn, but the smoothness that results makes for a much more enjoyable instrument to play. I do the same process on the tuning slides, only on the upward slides that get pulled, I use a much more aggressive treatment. (often apllied with 0000 steel wool) I suppose I could use some fine lapping compound, but with patience Brasso works just fine on the nickle silver slides. I doublt that a factory can afford the time to perform this finer level of finishing.

For smooth pulling slides, I like to use lanolin applied first and worked in as a base or gap filer. Then vasoline seems to add a certain smoothness or lightness to the pull.(add a drop of oil and it really moves) Lanolin for babies or Bag Balm also works smoothly. I did get pure lanolin by ordering it online. It is not the best for instruments used in the cold (outside in Winter) as the lanolin does get very stiff.(I made that mistake back in my Salvation Army days when we had kettle duty in the weeks preceding Christmas. Slides became immovavable) But back up at room temperature and its great. Otherwise a good slide grease such as Schilke or other manufactures work fine, albeit like valve oil, you can go broke keeping it in stock.

I can't say that I have ever seen a brand "spanking" new tuba on which the valves and slides couldn't be improved with this type of attention. Certainly the valves will eventually break in, but I would prefer to get that done at the "get go" and at the same time clean out some of the factory residue/grit which "ain't" real good to have in there grinding away.

One more thing, that is comparing the 6/4 to the Wyvern: The larger 6/4 actually plays some what lighter and is a totally different concept of a tuba from the Wyvern. It even coimmands to be held a certain way. You would need to play them side by side and then the difference would make sense to you. An analogy might be between the Baer and the Thor. But keep in mind, while the 6/4 does "feel" and "respond" lighter, it is capable of a massive sound in ways different from the Wyvern. Either of these fills the role of a large ensemble horn, so a smaller tuba may be necessary for quintet or small ensemble playing.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

Steve Marcus wrote:Jonathan, you've stated that the new 6/4 CC will be entirely different from the new 6/4 Grand BBb tuba. In light of the superlatives about the 6/4 CC prototype, what are the differences in construction on the 6/4 BBb and what can we expect in comparison to the glowing report that Paul posted about the 6/4 CC?
Steve, The 6/4 BBb and CC use different parts because we wanted to keep the expansion rates exact on both with no compromises for optimal playing and intonation. What you will first notice picking up the BBb against the CC is that it is quite a lot heavier, as it is made with the thicker brass and hydrolically formed bows. This is to be more robust for band playing and to keep the price down for the general market. The 6/4 CC, I consider Wessex flagship tuba, but the BBb will no doubt sell more. Apart from the extra weight, I think the BBb provides a more solid tone to make it perfect as bass in band - with the CC more colour flexible for orchestral tuba playing. Both are developed by Chuck Nickles and have the same uncanny good intonation.

Talking of the 6/4 BBb, Chuck has extensively redesigned since the first prototype we exhibited at the last NAMM and US Army to improve further with better balance, shorter reach to valves, lower leadpipe and a slight raise in pitch (first prototype tended to play flat).

Both the CC and BBb will be at 2018 US Army Workshop and TMEA for all to try. I think when you play, you will agree Chuck has done am incredible job developing and the factory has exceeded themselves in building these great new tubas.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Tubanomicon »

Can someone post a link to the 6/4 Grand BBb tuba with some stats? I can't seem to find it on Wessex's site anywhere.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by thevillagetuba »

Tubanomicon wrote:Can someone post a link to the 6/4 Grand BBb tuba with some stats? I can't seem to find it on Wessex's site anywhere.
It is not on their website, but in the Sponsers forum: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=74966" target="_blank
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by bububassboner »

The newest version of the 6/4 BBb looks much different than what has been shown. Rewrapped the bows, did a major redesign of the valve block (the fourth slide now has 3 usable slides) and a number of other changes. I'll let Jonathan show some pictures of it when he is ready. It's much closer now to my original prototype and I'm quite excited about it.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Tubanomicon »

Thanks for sharing, @thevillagetuba. I can't wait to see some pictures of the newest version!
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

I have just posted pictures of the latest version of the TB692 Grand 6/4 BBb here viewtopic.php?f=9&t=74966&p=630854#p630854

For comparison here is picture of the TB695 Chicago 6/4 CC. This is the actual tuba Paul play tested.

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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Voisi1ev »

Dang, that looks nice.

If a fellow in MI wanted to try one of these, a Wyvern, and an Eb Helicon. Would after the new year be a safe bet for production models?
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

Voisi1ev wrote:Dang, that looks nice.

If a fellow in MI wanted to try one of these, a Wyvern, and an Eb Helicon. Would after the new year be a safe bet for production models?
You could probably try all of those now - although prototype for the 6/4. The Wyvern and Eb helicon production models will be there now. The production 6/4 CC is unlikely to be available until March 2018
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

Stryk wrote:Looks more like nickel plating, not silver.
It was obviously well polished before photographing! It is real silver-plating. Wessex NEVER applies nickel-plating
Last edited by Wyvern on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Wyvern »

Stryk wrote:I will have to wait until one makes it to the southeast US, though.
I am going to see if we can make some of the regional ITEC conferences in 2018, to cover all parts of the states. I want as many players as possible to get an opportunity to try this tuba, the new 6/4 BBb, and all the other exciting new models Wessex has during 2018
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Re: Wessex 6/4 CSO style

Post by Tubanomicon »

Wyvern wrote:
Stryk wrote:I will have to wait until one makes it to the southeast US, though.
I am going to see if we can make some of the regional ITEC conferences in 2018, to cover all parts of the states. I want as many players as possible to get an opportunity to try this tuba, the new 6/4 BBb, and all the other exciting new models Wessex has during 2018
YES PLEASE! I can't wait to try it.
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