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Over the past decades I’ve wondered why I find our shop/display horns with the 2nd slide pulled way out after some particularly rank amateur(s) have been playing all the tubas and “Can’t find a good one that I like.” I just serviced a school owned Miraphone BB186-4V with the 2nd slide pulled out 1.5” when I first checked it out. I had to put the slide all the way back in to bring the 2nd valve A and E naturals in-tune.

I experimented a bit to see if I could play the horn in a way such an excessive slide pull would be needed. If I made that beginner tubist sound plus kept buzzing the open valve note and not adjust my embouchure when I pushed down the 2nd valve, I had to indeed pull the 2nd slide out about 1.5” to bring the pitch down to in-tune. There you have it folks. Keep buzzing a Bb when you push the second valve down on your Bb tuba and then the A will be very sharp unless you pull out the slide to compensate. OR....learn to buzz the right pitch and stop blaming the horn.

It is sad that I can predict a tuba player’s sound by looking to see how far out the second valve slide is pulled.

You know how to play the tuba don't you??

You just put your lips together (but not actually touching) and blow!!

The only valve slide advice I ever got in high school was "the little one should be out 1/2 inch, the medium one should be out 1 inch, and the big one out 1 1/2 inches." Clearly, I ignored that and did it correctly. But it was fun when other people told me I was out of tune, because I didn't do what they said.

Matt, I can't imagine what you have to hear and see sometimes...

Now I going to be looking at everyone's second-valve slides...

I don't as many players, but I do see a few with every slide in as far as it will go.

It's an interesting but weird theory. The player apparently can play the whole step down in tune, with the first valve? but plays sharp on the half step. If you had one of these individuals on hand to experiment with, it would be interesting to see what happens on an ascending chromatic line. Are they conditioned to play sharp any time the 2nd valve is engaged? Only 2nd valve alone? Only when approached from the open note, as perhaps might happen when tuning?

Is it possible that some people just don't have a good ear for half steps, and will exaggerate them thinking it sounds right? (perhaps reinforced in this belief when the extra length helps 1+2 come out right.)

I've found that when I don't practice enough between rehearsals, I also need to pull ALL of the slides a bit more than normal (about 1/4" on the 2nd slide) to keep myself in tune. I've never pulled the 2nd slide out more than about 3/4", and that was to deal with a church piano that was below 440.
When I'm practicing regularly, I can push them back to their normal locations. I think it has to do with embouchure more than anything.

To swillafew's point - I have also seen tuba players with all of their slide pushed all the way in. When I pick up their horns for a quick test, I ALWAYS need to pull a slide or two to get myself in tune. When I pick up my dad's tuba, I can pretty much play it in tune without adjusting any of the slides (see practice note above).

by Donn » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:07 pm
It's an interesting but weird theory. The player apparently can play the whole step down in tune, with the first valve? but plays sharp on the half step. If you had one of these individuals on hand to experiment with, it would be interesting to see what happens on an ascending chromatic line. Are they conditioned to play sharp any time the 2nd valve is engaged? Only 2nd valve alone? Only when approached from the open note, as perhaps might happen when tuning?

The reason the whole step is played less sharp is that they can't play a whole step lower without shifting embouchure like they can playing only a half step lower. So if they actually move the lips to buzz a lower pitch, it won't be as sharp. At least for descending the scale this is an explanation and who doesn't tune the open fundamental first before they check the second valve next?

Don't have the answers but I'm sharing what I have observed over the decades.

If CC with the 4th valve is in tune, then BB with 2 & 4 needs about 2 inches of pull on either the 2nd or 4th slide. But then you have to remember to put it back. I wonder if that could be an alternate solution to the mystery in at least some cases.

There's a second valve slide?

Oldschooltuba wrote:There's a second valve slide?

Did you think that tubas came from the factory pre-tuned?

THEY DON'T?

scottw wrote:THEY DON'T?

Some do. I paid extra to have mine done when it was built.

Huh. Never heard of such a thing.....the reason why I like a tuba with wider slots is that my slide positions are not as critical. I'm sure I don't get as resonant a sound as a pro would, but at least I can hit the notes in tune. On my horn, they are all pretty much all the way in, which is what it just so happens the manufacturer recommends as proper placement. So I guess I'm doing something not that wrong. When you play in amateur groups, it's hard as hell to decide what you're tuning to anyway, since there is no pitch center, even/especially among the tubas, which tend to sound like thunder in a barrel.

Art Hovey wrote:If CC with the 4th valve is in tune, then BB with 2 & 4 needs about 2 inches of pull on either the 2nd or 4th slide. But then you have to remember to put it back. I wonder if that could be an alternate solution to the mystery in at least some cases.

Hi Art.

Me thinks this is rationale for having a 4th slide that is both accessable and well lapped for a smooth and easy pull.
That being said, I've never really had a problem lipping that low C# (oops that's 4 + 2 on the CC tuba) down to where it need be.

There are 2nd valve slide kickers on some tubas that are factory installed but this requires a premeditated movement with the left hand some how.

On F tubas, this is part of the rationale for the 6th valve. (being a flat 1/2 step)

Some of the newer pistons tubas with the York/Holton style valve block have been coming now with a long rod and ring for a relatively easy pull. Problem being that such a short slide nested between 1 & 3 slides is hard to lapp and get smooth and also if those slides are not parallel, perhaps not practical to use. The 4th slide is more practical IMHO.

With all this chatter on the 2nd valve in combination with the 4th, perhaps a dependent 6th valve built on the 4th slide would be a solution. Keep the 5th valve independent with the thumb, right where they are on most modern right handed tubas. That 5th valve could have a trigger somewhere convenient for the left hand. Most likely near the top slides between 1 & 3 (or) where the hand rests most of the time.

But who wants yet another valve (6) on an allready heavy 5 valve CC or BBb tuba.

bloke wrote:A C tuba 6th valve (GG 1/2 step) sure would be handy to use to play the always-sharp "low D" (5-234-and-pull-something), to eliminate the reluctant compromise between "low F" (5-4) and "low F# (5-2-3), and as an alternate for one-or-more of the squirrelly 2-3 fingered pitches (1-2-6, which would be slightly longer than 2-3).

OK...I've just "fixed" at least four pitches. Now...Once it's in place, I wonder how many more purposes (perhaps a Meistersinger trill...??) someone might find for it.

If we would all collectively come to our senses and go back to using the LONG 5th valve tuning common on older Miraphones you could have much closer in tune valve combinations down low.

Art Hovey wrote:If CC with the 4th valve is in tune, then BB with 2 & 4 needs about 2 inches of pull on either the 2nd or 4th slide. But then you have to remember to put it back. I wonder if that could be an alternate solution to the mystery in at least some cases.

I usually tune my 4th valve low C to be a bit flat as it's easier for me to lip up while playing than going the other way. The low F and E don't suffer all that much either. This allows my low B to be in tune while not having to touch the 4th slide during performance. I do a similar thing on the 1st slide. I generally leave the 2nd and 3rd slides alone and pushed all the way in.

This is not true for all tubas but it is for my tuba.

Are flat half step 6th valves generally usable on fifth partial flat first valve notes (C on a Bb tuba, D on a C tuba,...)?

The whole brass instrument is merely a pitch approximator. As Matt alluded to, if the player can hear the pitch in advance and is buzzing to create that pitch, it doesn't take a great or exotic horn to get the pitch right. The most important part of the playing equation is behind the mouthpiece.