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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby MN_TimTuba » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:12 pm

As a highly interested amateur tuba player who's owned exactly 2 tubas in my 59 years, I find it mighty entertaining to see you who are accomplished/professional tuba players having personal inner debates on exactly the same things we amateurs debate, though on a much higher level; i.e. - we nitpick Ford vs Chevy, you nitpick Mercedes vs BMW. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my Holton 345 reconditioning project to be completed - a horn I find (thru reading here) is mostly either highly loved or totally despised. I hope I'll love it when it returns to me, or I'll have to start my own debating here. Keep up the conversation, I'm enjoying it!
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby Phil Dawson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:52 pm

Get a 1293, have the leadpipe work done (talk to Roger Lewis) and you will have a wonderful horn. Phil
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby bort » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:42 pm

Tim, I think most of us around here are like you, interested amateurs. I am interested to see how your 345 turns out, and hoe much more you will like it!

Phil, thanks for the suggestion. I will have to do a little homework about the 1293. I haven't played many of them, and don't really remember how they compare to the 1292.
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby MN_TimTuba » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:48 pm

Bort,
Glad you're interested in the 345 project! Since I live about 3 hrs N of Eric, feel free to drop in on him and take it for a test drive. I'm hoping to have her back by October...
Happy hunting.
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby Phil Dawson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:26 am

The main differences between the 1292 and 1293 are that the 1293 has a bigger bell (same as the 1290) no bell kranz, a larger 5th valve rotor which gives it a better low range, and the removable leadpipes. I believe that Roger Lewis helped wit the design of the 1293 and he would be the one to talk to. I worked with him when I got mine (it was a show demo) and he is very familiar with the tweeks that can make the horn play even better. Phil
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby bort » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:12 am

Thanks Phil!

In terms of the sound... is it a broader and more "American" kind of sound than the 1292? Or is it still in the spirit of the 1292, but just "bigger"? (I hate trying to describe sound characteristics in words... hopefully this will make a bit of sense...)
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby Phil Dawson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:41 am

The bell size of the 1292 is18.5 inches and the 1293 is 19.7 inches. I'm not sure that makes a whole lot of difference in sound. I believe that Mike Forbes got rid of his 1292 for a 1293. I know that I provided a spare (long story) custom by Miraphone leadpipe (small receiver (American) small diameter leadpipe (1292 I think) for his 1293 and I think he was very happy. There is also something about asymmetrical bows that help the horn center pitch better but Roger knows more about that than I do. I think that the main differences have to do with greatly improved low register, centering of sound and the mouthpipe options. You can take the 1292 pipe that comes with the horn and put the receiver from the 1291 pipe (smaller non euro) on it and get there I just chose to leave my horn as stock as possible. The custom leadpipe really tightens up the horn and Roger can give you numerous references to people that have done that mod. If you desire you can also get a 2 step 5th valve slide that nests very well in the wrap. The horn comes with a 443 tuning slide but you can get a 440 slide and Roger has been known to be able to get them at no charge. Basically the 1293 IMO is an improved 1292 with very similar sound but it just plays better. It was designed I am told to outperform the Thor. Whether is does or not I don't know. Phil
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby Mark Horne » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:00 pm

Last night I was rehearsing with a local wind symphony playing contrabass clarinet. The lone tuba player seated right behind me was playing on a 1291 CC and getting a fantastic all-around tuba sound with good punch and definition - just what you would want in that situation. That is, until it came to some loud sustained low notes around an Eb or so - it just didn't have the same projection. I briefly owned a 1291 and played Lincolnshire Posy with this same group. I found myself wishing I could get more volume out of those near-pedal low notes. I believe that the 1293 was created specifically for this reason. With the interchangeable lead pipe you could choose between the tighter slots of the medium (1292) or the more open (1291) style.

When I demo'd the 1291 and 1293 back to back I felt like they had a very similar sound profile with the 1293 having more power in the bottom of the range.
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby bort » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:09 pm

Thanks Mark! I found much of the same thing from my 1291 in the low range... However, I rarely find that low Eb is a great note on many CC tubas. Sometimes yes... But more often no. That note was certainly there on the 1291, but took some practice to learn how to make it come out. Can't just push it out like the F or the G above it. Good to hear that the 1293.fixed a lot of that!
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby ouch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:22 am

Interesting, I had the same low range problem with my 1291 as well for awhile. I found my "fix" was not just the Alan Baer valve kit, but with this Dillon Olka CB-1 (deeper than the G&W Baer, actually). I first had the prototype, then I got lucky and found a production model after months of looking. The crazy heavy core and strange backbore make navigating the low register much, much easier and provides all the power your chops can give it. It for sure takes much more air than other mouthpieces, probably because it was made for that Yamaha York copy (it's what my professor at the time said). I remember side-by-side comparing my 1291 and the Doc's MW2000 with our Olka CB-1's, ending with him drastically liking the feel and sound of the 1291 and shocked that he could get that much sound out of it. I would say it was nice to not fight the horn and move on to other aspects of my playing. Or I might just be some weird guy who can work around the power for no good reason, I can't rule out that possibility.

The only Issue I can think of is that I have not seen another Dillon Olka CB-1 anywhere on the internet.. If you can find one it might make all the difference, and can save yourself some money and hassle of finding a 1293 you like. (I personally am a fan of the big style valve, I played one a 1291 BBb for an extended period and loved how smooth that valve was. I totally understand the struggle of picking between the 1291/93).

Quite honestly the only thing I have to complain about with my horn is that my valve springs are stiff, I can't find where to buy a sharp 2+3 slide for the 5th valve and that super long waterkey that gets bumped open.
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby bort » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:00 am

Thanks Alex! Does the CB2 give you similar results, if you have tried it?

Also, for all 3 of those complaints -- very minor -- contact Roger Lewis, and he can get you all set up.
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby bisontuba » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:13 am

Dillon Music has a used silver 1293 for sale..FYI...
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Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Postby ouch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:02 pm

I tried the CB-2 when it first came out in 2015, in short I had similar results with the CB-2. it's a little smaller than the 1 but keeps the same rim and weight if i'm not mistakened. It still has the groovy backbore that I believe helps cut in the low register of the horn, I want to call it a v-cup but I am not certain.
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