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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:09 pm
by windshieldbug
the elephant wrote:I feel bad for kids who study with a player who is a neurotic about toys to the point that he uses things that would cancel each other out.

Wouldn't that just make him a trumpet operator!? :shock:

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:55 am
by Three Valves
I love the smell of a good rant in the morning.

Smells like, victory!!

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:53 am
by Tubaguyry
Some folks sure do use a hell of a lot of smart-sounding tech-speak and other mumbo-jumbo when describing what they need to do to sound good, don't they?

Sure seems like an extremely cumbersome way of saying "song and wind."

(And the funny thing about it is if you actually get the chance to listen to some of these guys who always have an opinion on the latest fad equipment tweaks, etc., the vast majority -- not ALL, but MOST -- that I've heard...well, in the interest of semi-diplomacy, let's just say their playing doesn't exactly help to lend credibility to their positions.)

I mean, guys like Floyd Cooley, Michael Lind, etc. could play cracked, fiberglass, three-valve sousaphones with leaky water keys and still sound like GODS. On the other side of the coin, SOME dudes -- no matter how much time/money/other they spend on new instruments or obsessing over minutiae -- will always sound like the garbage players they are.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:05 pm
by chronolith
I don't bother with an AGR. I just stop and rewrap the shank of my mouthpiece with a precisely measured length of scotch tape between excerpts during auditions.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:52 pm
by windshieldbug
chronolith wrote:I don't bother with an AGR. I just stop and rewrap the shank of my mouthpiece with a precisely measured length of scotch tape between excerpts during auditions.

"Would,the candidate please play the excerpt again, with 1/2" less tape and more commitment?"

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:16 am
by iiipopes
bloke wrote:Moving the end of the mouthpiece (which is expanding in size on the inside of the shank) to the choke point of a receiver (where the receiver ends, and where the mouthpipe starts) eliminates any reverse taper in the beginning of the instrument.

No listener can hear a difference, but a player can feel a difference (just as when a little chunk of tooth filling is gone).

Sometimes, eliminating the reverse taper (again: a reverse taper which is caused by some back-end of the mouthpiece receiver being exposed) will slightly speed up low range response (enough to be "helpful"), but not with all makes/models of tubas. Some players seem to believe that adding more of that reverse taper (exposed receiver interior) will make their sound prettier. Again, they may be able to hear something, but - likely - no one else can.

Sousaphone tuning bits (the back-ends of which are always made of one-thickness sheet metal) always introduce a reverse taper in the beginning of an instrument. Two sousaphone tuning bits will offer this event twice, obviously. Oddly (just as - seemingly - does "no reverse taper"), a really long reverse taper (such as with a sousaphone bit) also tends to "tighten up" the low range as a venturi effect begins to occur.

Any good player will adjust to any of these factors being in place or not being in place. There are effects, but (again) the player will either work with them or overcome them - as their playing style will unconsciously dictate...which is why "voodoo" is nearly accurate.
+1!!!
I will only expand on bloke's first comment that the sound may be "prettier." Being under the bell, as a player we get a lot of feed back through the jaw bone, to the point that is more of what we "hear," rather than what is actually coming out front. A little more resistance from the two bits, as bloke describes, or to otherwise expand the "reverse taper," causes more resistance to the airflow, and that translates back to the jawbone and the temporal bone leading to the inner ear, so that there is a little more fundamental in the resonance of the jaw and skull, which is perceived as "prettier."

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:35 am
by Donn
I'm having a hard time making the connection between airflow/resistance, and resonant feedback through the bone. But I could imagine how all that would apply to mass differences, like weighted mouthpieces.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:09 pm
by proam
OK, I probably shouldn't venture in here since I am only a novice tubist, having spent 40 years or so as a decent trumpet player. As a trumpet player I am well-versed in gap theory and while I don't personally believe that it is the be-all, end-all that some do, instrument builders that I greatly respect do believe in it.

So how does using a tuning bit delete the effect of an AGR? The gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece (a drop off into the receiver) and the beginning of the leader pipe (a butt end of pipe within the receiver). As far as I know, using a tuning bit just extends the receiver, in a way. Like me using an adapter to use a cornet mouthpiece on a trumpet. You do change things --- you have the drop-off from the mouthpiece into the adapter and now a second drop-off from the adapter (or bit) into the receiver, but you still have the butt-end of the leader pipe tube to contend with.

I always thought the big bugaboo in gap theory was the butt-end of the leader pipe which is still there, whether you have a bit or not. The size and ... shape? ... of the gap is different, yes.

I do understand the rant is mostly about worrying about finicky little obsessive things. And not all trumpet players or makers believe in the gap. Schilke sought to eliminate it.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:11 pm
by peterbas
deleted

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:23 pm
by Alex C
Many brands of tuba use the leadpipe as part of the mouthpiece receiver. In those cases, there can be no gap. I added an AGR to my BMB F tuba, no setting makes any difference in response for that reason.

But trumpet players are (more sensitive because A) a 1/4" gap on trumpet is equal to a 1/2" gap on trombone and a 1" gap on tuba B) no trumpet player worth a damn misses unless there is something wrong with his horn.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:21 am
by Donn
Hm, there are some interesting dimensional differences.

Trumpet's bore diameter is between 2/3 and 1/2 the tuba's, but its sound wavelength is 1/4 the tuba's. Shank edge thickness probably is also more than 1/4 the size of the typical tuba mouthpiece shank edge. There's a lot more room, I'm thinking, for those little vibrations to bounce around and get complicated, where in the tuba the details are a little less relevant to the big waves going through.

Anyway ... that shank edge thickness does create an abrupt difference in diameter, even if your receiver is just the leadpipe. In that case, has anyone ever reamed out the shank end to a short conical shape, for a more gradual transition? Seems to me I've seen something like that, but must have been pictures because none of mine are that way.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:55 am
by peterbas
deleted

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:29 am
by peterbas
deleted

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:13 pm
by proam
the elephant wrote:I call "gap theory" persistent bovine feces, just like much of Dave Monette's ideas about mouthpieces. Garbage. Say what you will, if you step back and really think of these things you see they are bunk. Parts need to fit perfectly, and introducing a gap is interference in the air stream. There should be NO gap, ever, IMHO. Just sayin'... ;-)
Yes, my inclination was the same as yours, that it is all poppycock. But I am a believer in the trumpet maker Cliff Blackburn (I have a few of his horns) and he believes in the gap so I am find myself forced to admit that there must be something to it. The idea is to have controlled resistance at certain points in the air flow. Not all resistance is bad, according to believers.

(Aside: there was someone who advocated slightly misaligned valves as being preferable to aligned valves. Don't know how many people he convinced but it was the same idea of planned resistance at certain points can be good.)

My flugelhorn does not use a receiver so there is no gap. Many (most?) flugelhorns have no gap.

Schilke made his mouthpieces and receivers so that the mouthpiece would butt up against the leadpipe, leaving no gap. Seems to me like wear would quickly happen, leading to a mouthpiece that you couldn't get to fit tightly... but maybe I am wrong. I have never owned a Schilke trumpet.

I own a couple of Monette mouthpieces and have had others pass through my hands. I tried some of his horns in the 90's that I thought were quite nice. His new stuff I just cannot comprehend but players with far more talent than I believe in him so I tend to think I am at fault for not understanding him.

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 am
by barry grrr-ero
Be careful not to fall into the gap . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KizEsEnctU" target="_blank

Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:47 pm
by southtubist
I guess I'm the opposite of this guy?

I mean, the last two CC tubas I've owned have had Euro receivers, but I played them with an American shank Blokepiece because I'm too cheap to buy a new mouthpiece. I've played the same two mouthpieces for 6 years I think, too.