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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby joh_tuba » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:25 am

It's been a bit since I last tooted one the newer German made Besson Ebs so I no longer recall the details with certainty BUT if I recall correctly some idiot decided to lengthen the 4th valve so that it is flatter than it ought to be. This put the low E-natural perfectly in tune but everything above it was an abomination.

That same horn, ALSO had a peculiar receiver design. Rather an a smooth transition into the leadpipe there was a large drop off into markedly larger diameter tubing. This marked drop just happened to coincide with where the end of a typical mouthpiece shank would rest, effectively doubling the affect.

Also, from the factory the valve alignment is a mile off.

I truly have no understanding, other than tradition and dogged determination to sound great no matter what, why these horns enjoy any success at all.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:46 am

Wyvern wrote:I did consider adding more than 2cm, but then players that are used to lipping complain of the tuba playing flat. 2cm longer slide enables 4cm longer overall pull so will solve problem without the slides being dangerously near to falling out.
bloke wrote:The thing is this:
Euphoniums need this as well. :|

I personally do not find this problem with Wessex Dolce euphonium, but am open to being told otherwise by real euphonium players


All 5000 of us are regularly reminded that Wessex instruments are all perfect in every way, they are all inspected by official inspectors to insure even higher levels of perfection, that they continue to become even more perfect, and all that jazz...
...but "Wessex instruments" (nor any make, in particular) are not the topic.
Perhaps (??) Wessex-specific comments could be transcribed into a new thread entitled something such as
"Wessex instruments: perfection, utopian wonderland, transcendence, and the Shangri-la of Brass"...
8)
================================================
to the topic:

A longer #3 COMPENSATING slide...

...on a BBb 3+1 compensating bass would
- barely mess up double-low Db, but would put double-low C on point, and make double-low B better...

...on an Eb 3+1 compensating bass would
- barely mess up low Gb, but would put double-low F on point, and make double-low E better...

...on a Bb 3+1 compensating euphonium would
- barely mess up double-low Db, but would put double-low C on point, and make double-low B better...

...all of this without effecting the intonation of any other pitches.

bloke "The Blaikley System - particularly when installed on an exceptionally good instrument - is just about as good (particularly - in my opinion - with this minor fix) as the 6-valve independent compensating system (as is found on 6-valve F tubas) is when installed on an exceptionally good instrument."
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:12 pm

bloke wrote:Perhaps (??) Wessex-specific comments could be transcribed into a new thread entitled something such as
"Wessex instruments: perfection, utopian wonderland, transcendence, and the Shangri-la of Brass"...

WHAT! :?: :shock: All I did was reply to your comment :roll:

Have you got the hump because Wessex addressed this issue before your beloved 'high-grade' Packer???
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby humBell » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:12 pm

bloke wrote:
humBell wrote:This may be an obvious question, but can the Eb 3rd comp loop slide now be put in the BBb second valve loop with no real loss of functionality? Other than the recent "mystery solved" thread, i have not heard of tuba players pulling the 2nd valve slide much as a general rule.

Anyway, i am looking forward to perhaps generate my own practial experiences to contribute to this thread...


' prolly...if you own two same-make instruments that also have the same crooks/geometry.
Of course, there would then be a significant bore gap in the #2 front-side slide on the BBb.


Will check said geometry when i next have them in the same room. May be a while...
They are same make give or take the variations in ownership that happened in 30-40 years preceeding wwii.

I thought of gap, but personally i would try, and switch back and forth as i cared.
I have occasionally been guilty of this behavior with sousaphone necks as well...
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:39 pm

A couple of scraps of Yamaha YBB-201/321 1-2-3 inside slide tubing (cut to the correct lengths - to fill in the gaps) would
- fit slightly loosely, and thus not get stuck
- be the correct bore size - .728"

To be clear,
IF Besson/Boosey&Hawkes,

The FRONT-side #2 slide from a BBb (.728" front / .768" back) would fit the BACK-side #3 "compensating" slide from an Eb (.689" front / .728" back) tuba.

:arrow: Some makes' UNLIKE geometry (i.e. NOT the same crook widths) do NOT allow for this particular interchangeability. Edgware Street-manufactured instruments, however, DO.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Eflatdoubler » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:48 pm

I have a Wessex Solo and would love to know when this 3rd valve compensating slide extension was done as it could still benefit from added length. Or I should say, I have a Wessex custom, which I was told is the same as the Solo I ordered (only after I received it). I think it is poor practice to sell something to someone that is different then advertised. If I bought a GMC Sierra 1500 and received a Chevy Silverado- they call that bait and switch.
I paid the same new price and when I questioned this I did not so much as receive an apology, only told," they are the same."
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:47 pm

Eflatdoubler wrote:I have a Wessex Solo and would love to know when this 3rd valve compensating slide extension was done as it could still benefit from added length. Or I should say, I have a Wessex custom, which I was told is the same as the Solo I ordered (only after I received it). I think it is poor practice to sell something to someone that is different then advertised. If I bought a GMC Sierra 1500 and received a Chevy Silverado- they call that bait and switch.
I paid the same new price and when I questioned this I did not so much as receive an apology, only told," they are the same."

If your Wessex Solo does not have the lengthened slide then it was manufactured before that improvement was implemented. Like the phone you buy now will have improvements over what was sold last year, so may be the case with a Wessex instrument. We are always working to improve and make them better. The Custom on the bell is irrelevant. That was just version of Wessex engraving used for a while - it means nothing particular.

If you require longer slide then contact me off-line. I am sure we can get made.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:34 pm

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:56 pm

Wyvern wrote:
bloke wrote:Perhaps (??) Wessex-specific comments could be transcribed into a new thread entitled something such as
"Wessex instruments: perfection, utopian wonderland, transcendence, and the Shangri-la of Brass"...

WHAT! :?: :shock: All I did was reply to your comment :roll:

Have you got the hump because Wessex addressed this issue before your beloved 'high-grade' Packer???


Eflatdoubler wrote:I have a Wessex Solo and would love to know when this 3rd valve compensating slide extension was done as it could still benefit from added length. Or I should say, I have a Wessex custom, which I was told is the same as the Solo I ordered (only after I received it). I think it is poor practice to sell something to someone that is different then advertised. If I bought a GMC Sierra 1500 and received a Chevy Silverado- they call that bait and switch.
I paid the same new price and when I questioned this I did not so much as receive an apology, only told," they are the same."


yep...right on target...You sure got me on that one. :roll: :lol:
...but OK...if you want to change to topic from "#3 compensating slide length" to "instruments - such as JP - which actually are high-grade", is this actually one that is, and has anyone played one?
http://s434355904.initial-website.co.uk/products/symphony-range/eeb-bass/
Last edited by bloke on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Eflatdoubler » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:00 am

Wyvern wrote:
Eflatdoubler wrote:I have a Wessex Solo and would love to know when this 3rd valve compensating slide extension was done as it could still benefit from added length. Or I should say, I have a Wessex custom, which I was told is the same as the Solo I ordered (only after I received it). I think it is poor practice to sell something to someone that is different then advertised. If I bought a GMC Sierra 1500 and received a Chevy Silverado- they call that bait and switch.
I paid the same new price and when I questioned this I did not so much as receive an apology, only told," they are the same."

If your Wessex Solo does not have the lengthened slide then it was manufactured before that improvement was implemented. Like the phone you buy now will have improvements over what was sold last year, so may be the case with a Wessex instrument. We are always working to improve and make them better. The Custom on the bell is irrelevant. That was just version of Wessex engraving used for a while - it means nothing particular.

If you require longer slide then contact me off-line. I am sure we can get made.


Thank you, but this answer is exactly proving my point and perhaps the point of others. Let me first preface this with that I do like your instruments. I have had students purchase both Wessex euphoniums and JP euphoniums and I tell them both are good instruments. If they prefer a Yamaha sound, go with Wessex, and if they prefer Besson, go with JP.
My issue is that you say the engraving "Custom" is irrelevant, yet you say if it is too short you will make me a longer slide. Obviously if the "Custom" was the same as the "Solo" it would be known if this was done already. I realize the goal is to constantly improve, but for some reason you opted to sell an instrument as "custom" and then changed the engraving, along with changing the slide length, etc... (even though the advertised instrument was a "Solo").
If a person orders a custom, sell them a custom. If they order a solo, sell them a solo. If they are the same (which obviously they are not- I would think using the serial number would be a way to recognize any change) tell them ahead of time. When I ordered my horn the issue on the forum was slow valves due to crud left in the horn. This problem was brought up and supposedly solved on your end, yet when I brought up my concern I was told I wasn't using the correct valve oil (I was using la tromba t3 valve oil). I have since used the Hetman and the Wick oil as suggested and experienced the same result.
As to the telephone analogy- they always change model numbers to designate changes which has been my point from the get go. An iPhone SE looks like a 5S but they are very different beasts under the hood.
- obviously this has jumped the shark. I only bring this up because Bloke merely mentions a very useful fix and then it seems someone takes offense and throws mud. There was never a mention of your product. I applaud what you have been trying to do in both creating affordable instruments and trying to improve quality for what one pays. I am perhaps sensitive to this issue because from a warranty stand point I have brought these topics up very kindly and I feel as if there is always a side stepping, and then when someone brings up any issue on this forum there appears to be the ability to time travel and an "already solved that, including the one you have issue with" statement.
I do think JP are put together by more skilled hands (based off of what I have seen multiple time by wessex in the past 3 years up to 16 months ago, and from jp in the past 2 years up through 2 months ago) but that does not mean I think the end result is always better. I do think the Solo is a home run in regard to bell size for an eflat tuba, especially for my purposes. I look forward to a longer 3rd valve compensating slide that will have to be 2cm longer than the "already fixed" version since the female end of the slides are not already longer. I also think the normal 3rd valve slide could be slightly shorter (1/2" as the high B runs a little flat with a 2-3 combo). One can always pull, but shortening is not an option.
Sincerely,
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:30 am

Matthew, Please contact me off-line if you want to discuss issue with your tuba. I do not want to hijack Bloke's thread
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:31 am

:lol:
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby imperialbari » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:36 am

The best solution would be, if all 4-valve compensators after the Blaikley system came with two slides for the 3rd valve comp loop. A short one true to the system math. And a longer one messing with the system math, but preferred by some players in certain situations.

I would not like buying an instrument allegedly built after the Blaikly math, where somebody had tampered irreversibly with that math.

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:18 am

imperialbari wrote:The best solution would be, if all 4-valve compensators after the Blaikley system came with two slides for the 3rd valve comp loop. A short one true to the system math. And a longer one messing with the system math, but preferred by some players in certain situations.

I would not like buying an instrument allegedly built after the Blaikly math, where somebody had tampered irreversibly with that math.

Klaus


Just as with other systems, when you get all the way down to 1-3, and 1-2-3, the math explodes and the listener winces.
The nice thing is this: That slide ~only~ is engaged to play 3 pitches, so it can be made the length that it needs to be acoustically, rather than some theoretical length.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Donn » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:50 am

Sadly, the math is inherently flawed anyway, right? because there is only one compensating loop, where in principle a four valve system would need three. Someday, Blaikley is going to be relegated to the dusty archive shelves of history by someone who can use modern technology to implement the mathematical ideal. Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:21 pm

Donn wrote:Sadly, the math is inherently flawed anyway, right? because there is only one compensating loop, where in principle a four valve system would need three. Someday, Blaikley is going to be relegated to the dusty archive shelves of history by someone who can use modern technology to implement the mathematical ideal. Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.


Perhaps I need new glasses (??), but I see THREE compensating loops. Do you own a Blaikley System instrument?

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby gwwilk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:01 pm

Donn wrote:...Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.

I can see it now: "Tonight's concert will be delayed for a few minutes. The tuba player forgot to charge his tuba's batteries. Our sincerest apologies for this inconvenience." :shock:
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby windshieldbug » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:50 pm

gwwilk wrote:
Donn wrote:...Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.

I can see it now: "Tonight's concert will be delayed for a few minutes. The tuba player forgot to charge his tuba's batteries. Our sincerest apologies for this inconvenience." :shock:


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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby imperialbari » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:11 pm

Telescopic cables connected to foot pedals.

A compensating euphonium with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve F tuba.

A compensating F tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve CC tuba.

A compensating Eb tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve BBb tuba.

A compensating BBb tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve FF tuba.

Would any good trumpet player play his 3 valve instrument with a fixed pull on his 3rd valve? Giving up the use of throw ring or trigger?

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:30 pm

all funny, but a longer slide is all that's needed.
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