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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Donn » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:44 pm

bloke wrote:Perhaps I need new glasses (??), but I see THREE compensating loops. Do you own a Blaikley System instrument?


I sure don't! Everyone knows they're stuffy. But what I meant by "loop" is the entire circuit - all the tubing in play when the 4th valve is depressed. All the other valves partake of that loop, via the extra compensating ... uh, loops. "Loop" was not a good choice of words for that, sorry! Maybe path. There's only one extra path.

So the math ... if we let A, B, C and D be the natural length of valve tubing associated with the respective valves, normalized to the length of the bugle, OK? So A would be about 1.122, D would be 1.333, etc.
Then the extra length needed to compensate for a valve combination C+D, turns out to be simply C*D; the compensation for A+D is A*D.
But when you add another valve to that series, say A+C+D, you need a couple more terms A*C + A*C*D, plus the A*D and C*D you already have per above. On an Eb tuba, are they 13.5 feet? I reckon that would be near 5 inches - just to add 1+3+4 to a compensating system "perfectly" adjusted to 1+4 and 3+4 (which I guess no one does.)
QED, the math is whacked.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Everyone knows...


"spoken like a true s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ consensus-accepter" :lol:

...and it's funny how well most comp-Eb tubas play in tune (except for two pitches which would benefit - most models - from one longer slide) in spite of their "whacked math".

bloke "The more I play them, the more I understand why people play them...just (please!) not the friggin' 24AW's"
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby ouch » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:49 am

Tried this trick with much success, didn't have as much trouble with the low Gb as I thought I would. Yes it did feel flat however the extra tubing makes a noticable difference on the chops, it feels more open and closer to the low F you would feel/hear on a contrabass tuba.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:16 am

Even were I to disagree with you, how can I argue with "ouch" ? :D
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby ouch » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:23 pm

Fair enough; I'm all ears for your next piece of advice!
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:26 pm

You certainly live in a beautiful part of the country...
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Rumblebuffin » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:48 am

Hello,
I've read this particular thread with interest as I know of some solutions that have been tried to the problem's being discussed
Alan Sinclair-former Principal tuba at the CBSO-had extended 3rd compensating valve slides made for his Besson New Standard EEb's in the late 1970's & early 1980's. (Essentially-he just had longer inner slide legs fitted that made the compensating slide stand out about 3/4" in the 'fully-in' position.) It worked pretty well.

Personally, I went a step or two further with my Besson EEb's by having a trigger fitted to the 'main third valve' slide by Mick Rath (Of Rath Trombones). This involved venting the third valve, shortening & machining stockings on the inner 3rd slides & setting the whole lot up to be parallel. (The trigger mechanism sits beneath the fourth valve and is operated by the middle finger.) The travel of the slide is about 4".
This works well &-as you can imagine-solves the low E & F problems completely.
(I also had a version done on the first slide-but that isn't what's being discussed here!)

I opted for the trigger solution primarily as-at the time-I was doing a run of Prokoffiev Romeo & Juliet with a reduced sized touring ballet orchestra.The usual solution to low E sharpness (Simply pulling out the main 3rd & compensating 3rd slides for a particular passage & pushing back in again as required.) wasn't going to work when there were so many low E & B naturals in the same passage. 'Dance of the Knights' or 'Montagues & Capulets' from the suite-being a prime example:There is no time (And no fingers!) to manually adjust the slides.

It was a precision, time consuming job & was expensive-but it has been well worth it, and it (And here I refer to the trigger & slide mechanism !!!) has performed faultlessly for the last 15 years.

I hope this is of interest.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby imperialbari » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:10 am

That is the solution I would go for, if I were younger.

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:39 am

Regarding the trigger, where I a person who used an E-flat tuba to play works such as those where the very low range is so exposed, yes… I might go a step farther as you have with that trigger solution...
... but as my E-flat tuba is only used for certain types of music, the longer compensating slide is a good enough fix for me.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby iiipopes » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:05 am

bloke wrote:All 5000 of us are regularly reminded that Wessex instruments are all perfect in every way, they are all inspected by official inspectors to insure even higher levels of perfection, that they continue to become even more perfect, and all that jazz...
...but "Wessex instruments" (nor any make, in particular) are not the topic.
Perhaps (??) Wessex-specific comments could be transcribed into a new thread entitled something such as
"Wessex instruments: perfection, utopian wonderland, transcendence, and the Shangri-la of Brass"...

I would say that the BR115, the 4-valve bell-front American-style bari/euph, with its slightly larger bore than the traditional King, Conn, Reynolds, Olds, Martin, etc., "traditional" "baritone" horns of the golden age of American concert bands, does fit my needs in community band better than any other horn. Period.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:40 am

I'm glad it's serving you well.

For whatever reason (??), those Conn double-belled "euphoniums" (little more than wildly souped-up Conn 14I baritones), sure seem to consistently remain in demand (even compared to other old makes of double-belled).

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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby iiipopes » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:21 pm

bloke wrote:I'm glad it's serving you well.

For whatever reason (??), those Conn double-belled "euphoniums" (little more than wildly souped-up Conn 14I baritones), sure seem to consistently remain in demand (even compared to other old makes of double-belled).

ImageImage

And the King versions as well. You should see the reported selling prices on Dave Werden's forum! :shock:
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby barry grrr-ero » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:08 am

During the years I owned my 3+1 'eefer', it worked fine for me by having a stop put on the third valve compensating slide (and keeping it out); keeping the regular third valve slide out farther than normal, and having a thumb activated ring to move the main tuning slide (which also had a stop on it). Because I had the bigger pipe and 19" bell, a bigger issue for me were the octaves being a tad too small. Therefore: main slide in when playing up high, main slide out when lower. A simplistic view but it worked. I got tons of compliments on the sound of that horn. Agility wasn't it's best feature, however. I had the "Parker cut" done on it as well.

I wish I had shipped that horn off to Mike Johnson in England, because I think he could have turned into something really special.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:15 am

Many players and designers work to address something called "stuffiness".
I suspect that a large percentage of "stuffiness" can be defined as "attempting to play a particular instrument ~as if~ if were another particular instrument".
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby iiipopes » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:01 am

Some stuffiness is due to either: 1) bends in the tubing at an inopportune place, or 2) an improperly placed brace, both which interfere with an antinode, and thus damps desired resonance to center a pitch.
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