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compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:55 pm
by bloke
topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
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It's really neat that a fully-chromatic instrument can be built with only four valves, but every tuning system (with up to 5 valves) has a few shortcomings.

Here's the worst shortcoming in the 3+1 Blaikley system:

Considering all of those extra slides and all of that extra gadgetry, the low F and low E (Eb tuba) are still not quite down (pitch) where they need to be.
Low Bb (ok), low A (ok), low Ab (ok), low G (ok), even low Gb (ok)...but - now that SO MUCH tubing has been added on to tubing that has been added on (just as with any brass instrument combined-valves tuning system) the ratios are off, and there's no more "give" to give. The system is "out of gas", low F (134) is significantly sharp, and low E (1234) is quite sharp...

...so why not do this?
LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide so that
- low Gb/F# (not the most-commonly encountered pitch in the world of tuba music) is saggy (flat) in pitch
- low F (voila !) is right in tune
- low E (thank-you!) is only a little bit sharp

:arrow: Two more-commonly-played pitches would be more in-tune, while sacrificing the intonation (a little bit, but still usable) of a pitch which is less-commonly-played. NO other pitches would be effected in the least. :|

btw: Edgware Street (London) Besson/B&H BBb tubas' .728" bore "front-side" #2 slides will slide right in to Edgware Street (London) Besson/B&H tubas' #3 compensating slides' outer slide tubes, and are the perfect length for this "fix".

If have to wonder if most makes BBb tubas' front-side #2 slides will also fit into same-make Eb tubas' #3 compensating slides (i.e. the same crook, and the same geometry, other than length).

bloke "...and yes, I understand there will be
1. those who claim that this is not a problem,
~ as well as ~
2. those who will simply view this as a bad idea because 'that's just not the way it's done'." :D

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:54 pm
by Donn
When you say "lengthen the #3 compensating slide" ... this is the additional tubing that's part of the 4th valve circuit? Does it really have a slide, or would that be a customization?

Not the common #3 valve tubing (which might also be maybe a hair flat for B/F#/etc.)

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:47 pm
by Dan Tuba
It seems like a good idea to me.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:07 pm
by TheGoyWonder
also if you can get 3rd long enough to use 1-3 and still have 2-3, you can put 4th longer (until 2-4 is too flat). i guess you gotta really looking for maximum length to do that.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:02 am
by Bill B
What about a kicker on the 1st, 3rd or 4th slide?

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:55 am
by oedipoes
bloke wrote:topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
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LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide


It is kind of common practice to have this compensating slide way out.
On my Besson, it is as far out as possible without falling apart.
I remember Mr. Tuba mentioning lengthening it to BBb tuba - size for some customers.

So, seems like a good idea...

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:16 am
by AndyCat
oedipoes wrote:
bloke wrote:topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
=================================================================
LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide


It is kind of common practice to have this compensating slide way out.
On my Besson, it is as far out as possible without falling apart.
I remember Mr. Tuba mentioning lengthening it to BBb tuba - size for some customers.

So, seems like a good idea...


Yep, mine has some string to stop me blowing it out as it's all the way out

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:55 am
by bloke
There are only a few responses here so far, but am I picking up that there is an agreement that this may be a VERY GOOD IDEA, and that (possibly?) that ONLY REASON that it's not been done before (on euphoniums, Eb's, and BBb's) is due to (simply) "that's the way that it has always been done"...??

To those who don't quite understand the slide to which I'm referring, it is THIS one (pictured below)...

As can be seen, I ~HAVE~ substituted a same-make (.728" bore) BBb tuba's FRONT SIDE #2 valve slide for the (inadequate length, imo) #3 Eb tuba compensating slide. ...Seriously, the low Gb/F# is NOT particularly flat, and EASY to push up to pitch, particularly (as we are all familiar with this tendency) when playing that pitch loudly.

Image

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:05 am
by iiipopes
I like it.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:34 pm
by Casca Grossa
Makes sense to me

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:44 pm
by ken k
I concur....Mine is pulled out as far as it can go without falling off.

kk

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:41 am
by pjv
Never played Eb (unfortunately)
But
What's with the ridiculously long 3rdV slides?
Seems like a lot of (unnecessary?) extra metal.
Or is it to tune the 3rdV down another 1/2 step?

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:39 pm
by Wyvern
I have already done this on the Wessex Eb tubas, extending the 3rd compensating slide by 2cm (0.8") each leg and adding pull ring. That was one of the first improvements I made.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:57 pm
by DonShirer
     If that's what you did with the Bombino, Jonathan, it seems to work.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:08 pm
by Wyvern
DonShirer wrote:     If that's what you did with the Bombino, Jonathan, it seems to work.

Yes, it was also done with the Bombino and Excelsior BBb

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm
by barry grrr-ero
I had one of those 'stop thingees' put on the 3rd valve compensating slide, just so that I could pull it waaay out w/o the worry of it falling on to the floor. This was back when I had a Besson 3+1 eefer.

I'm going to say, quite categorically, that 5 valve systems are STUPID on Eb and F instruments, UNLESS you make the 5th valve a tri-tone valve (like on the older Gronitz Eb), or a 'quint valve' (lowering the horn a full perfect fifth). I say this as someone who played the compensating system for several decades and found few problems with it.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:04 am
by humBell
This may be an obvious question, but can the Eb 3rd comp loop slide now be put in the BBb second valve loop with no real loss of functionality? Other than the recent "mystery solved" thread, i have not heard of tuba players pulling the 2nd valve slide much as a general rule.

Anyway, i am looking forward to perhaps generate my own practial experiences to contribute to this thread...

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:08 am
by bloke
humBell wrote:This may be an obvious question, but can the Eb 3rd comp loop slide now be put in the BBb second valve loop with no real loss of functionality? Other than the recent "mystery solved" thread, i have not heard of tuba players pulling the 2nd valve slide much as a general rule.

Anyway, i am looking forward to perhaps generate my own practial experiences to contribute to this thread...


' prolly...if you own two same-make instruments that also have the same crooks/geometry.
Of course, there would then be a significant bore gap in the #2 front-side slide on the BBb.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:43 am
by bloke
...extending the 3rd compensating slide by 2cm (0.8") each leg and adding pull ring...


That may possibly (??) be scantly enough, but more is beneficial. Low F#, with most of these instruments, hardly seems to move (doesn't suffer from much out-of-tune "flatness" as this loop is lengthened) as the low F (far more commonly-played by most all players) is dialed in...and E (obviously) continues to benefit as more length is added - to the point of being actually usable.

The thing is this:
Euphoniums need this as well. :|

Re: compensating for the compensating system

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:13 am
by Wyvern
I did consider adding more than 2cm, but then players that are used to lipping complain of the tuba playing flat. 2cm longer slide enables 4cm longer overall pull so will solve problem without the slides being dangerously near to falling out.
bloke wrote:The thing is this:
Euphoniums need this as well. :|

I personally do not find this problem with Wessex Dolce euphonium, but am open to being told otherwise by real euphonium players