5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

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marccromme
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by marccromme »

Hi Louis - for the sake of the others, I'll continue to write in English (and I really appreciate a German chat now and then with you when I am visiting Berlin)

This Cerveny model described by you above looks exactly like what I am looking for. I haven't seen that model here around Copenhagen yet.

Can you tell us more about it? How well is the intonation of the fundamentals? From the pictures I suspect it's a 500mm bell? Is it an instrument you are owning and trading ? What would your price be for this kind of instrument (in case its on the market for sale)?

Very interesting and intriguing. Thanks for sharing the picture - best, Marc
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by marccromme »

TheGoyWonder wrote:some rotary tubas have a long untapered dogleg (tuning slide and valves same 20.x mm bore or at least super close), so a fifth rotor could be put under fourth and not mess up the leadpipe.
how you would linkage to it, would take some wizardry.
Yes, that is possibly the best place for an additional 5th valve, if there is space enough. Louis showed a nice picture of a Cerveny having this layout, which is the same on my MW 2141 Eb (and it works so well there!).

Any idea what such a custom job would cost, roughtly, assuming that a 5th valve and tubing still can be ordered from the factory?
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
marccromme
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by marccromme »

bloke wrote:just fwiw...
The two best BBb tubas in current offerings (whether or not in current production) are very different from each other, but both sport 5 valves. Those two include:

- Miraphone model 98 "Siegfried"
- Meinl-Weston model 195/5P "Fafner"

The reason that they are the best is because I say so. :idea: :mrgreen: :tuba:
... I think your word has some value, but unfortunately my pockets are not deep enough to sport one of these. Holy moly, 14.000 to 16.000 € / $ ... I can buy two cars for that .. even in DK where the luxury taxes on cars are a sweet 130 % ...
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by apkujala »

Just a warning. I'm going to visit Nirschl next week because his Kaiser Bb tuba number 2 is now ready and waiting for silvering.
Warning because I am quite sure I can't control myself with the pictures.

While searching I tried almost all different Bb tubas. Siegfried was nice and so was 197/2. 197/2 don't usually have 5 valves, not sure if it's even an option.
I took the Nirschl with 5 valves just to get some options for fingerings and possibly/hopefully not needing a lot of tube pulling.

I will see soon how it turned out
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by TheGoyWonder »

marccromme wrote:
TheGoyWonder wrote:some rotary tubas have a long untapered dogleg (tuning slide and valves same 20.x mm bore or at least super close), so a fifth rotor could be put under fourth and not mess up the leadpipe.
how you would linkage to it, would take some wizardry.
Yes, that is possibly the best place for an additional 5th valve, if there is space enough. Louis showed a nice picture of a Cerveny having this layout, which is the same on my MW 2141 Eb (and it works so well there!).

Any idea what such a custom job would cost, roughtly, assuming that a 5th valve and tubing still can be ordered from the factory?
yes, it was Cerveny/Amati I was thinking of, I guess Miraphone is similar. The rotor you would get from a parts horn or a 3-valver from euro ebay. then you'd also have crooks and inner/outer slides, and find some fresh 20.2 mm tubing. LH linkage with a rod running down the body might work easier than a Mousetrap-style RH linkage going right thru the middle of the horn. Cost, idk...wouldn't want to be the first to have this done. once a tech has done it before and knows the exact parts that will work it would probably be bearable.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by TheBerlinerTuba »

Hallo Marc,
Sorry i just came back from vacation and am still in Deutschmode!

This particular Cerveny Kaiser tuba is a model 601 from the 1950s. The modern 601 is an even bigger tuba with larger bows but similar dimensions. Both have 50cm bells.
The tuba belongs to a collegue of mine and is not for sale.

It has been extensively modified to achieve a very even and open sound, included the oversized valve block and tubing, plus an oversized leadpipe and tuning slide and dogleg. The Fafner and B&S Neptune I tested it against sounded more like 4/4 tubas next to it.

Generally a 601 is a prime candidate for adding a 5th valve because it has a lot of open space around the valve block to install an extra valve + tubing. Adding the 5th does not seem to change the response or affect the playability of the instrument. Unfortunately with some tubas, this is not always the case.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by marccromme »

Hi Louis - thanks for the update. Now you know what I am looking for, if such an instrument or similar ever should pass your shop. Best, Marc
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
marccromme
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by marccromme »

apkujala - when you had some face time with the Nirschel, this forum begs you to share your findings ..
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by apkujala »

Can be sure I'll post stuff when I get my hands on my new baby
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Lectron »

marccromme wrote:Hi Louis - thanks for the update. Now you know what I am looking for, if such an instrument or similar ever should pass your shop. Best, Marc
Amati/Bohland & Fuchs 69 /Cerveny 691 surfaces quite often
Some already with 5th.

I have now one project going with a rather compact wrapping that easiest allow for a "top mount rotor"
Those are, known to me only made by Meinlschmidt, but a top shelf valve with direction of knuckles and bore of choice is still cheaper than a rather crappy donor horn.

Using the right parts makes the result better looking, better in general and the rest of the customization cheaper
Melton 200 -=- Melton 2141 -=- Cerveny 883 Opera -=- Besson 992 -=- MPCs: 3pcs steel (Sellmansberger/Parker)
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by TheGoyWonder »

you're probably right, is this the source you mention? http://www.voigt-brass.de
they have everything to put 5th above 1st, if you want 19/20/21mm which is good for b&s/mira/cerveny kaiser.
But then you'd have to do a new leadpipe, kinda defeating the point of enhancing a tuba you already like. leadpipe changes everything.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Lectron »

http://www.jm-gmbh.de/html/meinlschmidt_tuba.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

If in US, MAW is probably your best source for these
Melton 200 -=- Melton 2141 -=- Cerveny 883 Opera -=- Besson 992 -=- MPCs: 3pcs steel (Sellmansberger/Parker)
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by imperialbari »

I don’t quite get this from the page linked to:

auch mit gestürztem Ventil

Does that mean one or more rotors that have been rotated around the main windway like with the 5th and 6th left hand operated valves on older B&S F-tubas?

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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Lectron »

yes, for complete valve clusters and "upside down" valves :)
Like 5th and 6th on picture

Image
Melton 200 -=- Melton 2141 -=- Cerveny 883 Opera -=- Besson 992 -=- MPCs: 3pcs steel (Sellmansberger/Parker)
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Leland »

There was a recent post on Facebook from Big Mouth Brass saying that Gene Pokorny is using their BMB J-765 more often.
https://www.facebook.com/big.mouth.bras ... 3931085554" target="_blank
http://www.bigmouthbrass.com/instruments/j-765" target="_blank
A picture of Gene and the J-765 is in the slideshow at BMB's home page.
http://www.bigmouthbrass.com" target="_blank
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Steve Marcus »

apkujala wrote:Just a warning. I'm going to visit Nirschl next week because his Kaiser Bb tuba number 2 is now ready and waiting for silvering.
Warning because I am quite sure I can't control myself with the pictures.
:lol:
197/2 don't usually have 5 valves, not sure if it's even an option.
In a catalog from years ago, Melton called the 5-valve version a Model 198.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Travis99079 »

marccromme wrote:
bloke wrote:just fwiw...
The two best BBb tubas in current offerings (whether or not in current production) are very different from each other, but both sport 5 valves. Those two include:

- Miraphone model 98 "Siegfried"
- Meinl-Weston model 195/5P "Fafner"

The reason that they are the best is because I say so. :idea: :mrgreen: :tuba:
... I think your word has some value, but unfortunately my pockets are not deep enough to sport one of these. Holy moly, 14.000 to 16.000 € / $ ... I can buy two cars for that .. even in DK where the luxury taxes on cars are a sweet 130 % ...
The Wessex Luzern and the XL both seem to be more budget friendly. Each has 5 rotary valves and the XL features a removable bell.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by apkujala »

Howdy ho!
Day at Nirschl behind and I am happy. Horn is as good as I expected or even better on money register and higher half is better than I can believe.

Still here in Munich area so photos of the tuba will have to wait.

5 valves was also very good choice, for me at least. Low tones were easy to find and never miss again.
Have to say this is a big tuba and physical size might bring problems for smaller players.

Too bad I have to sleep before I can go back to touch it.
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Lectron »

Walter Hilgers is mentioned, so figured I'll post a pic of him with his basstuba "mit klappen"

They don't all stay clear of mods ;-)

Image

You can se similar don to several 197s
Melton 200 -=- Melton 2141 -=- Cerveny 883 Opera -=- Besson 992 -=- MPCs: 3pcs steel (Sellmansberger/Parker)
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Re: 5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

Post by Steve Marcus »

Lectron wrote:They don't all stay clear of mods ;-)
That's an understatement! I count 10 paddles, either for valves and/or triggers/switches.

Did I miss any? :)

Reminiscent of this specimen:
Multi-valve.jpg
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Last edited by Steve Marcus on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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