Vaughan Williams Concerto for Bass Tuba

[Charlie Goodman]

My teacher, Bob Whaley, played it on a Kaiser BBb back in college.

[tubadude08]

i am currently playing it on a CC

[Rick Denney]

Am I insane for tryin' to play this on a BBb tuba? I believe it was originally for an F. Have some of you successfully performed this beast on a BBb?

The saying in golf is, "It isn't how, it's how many."

A quick recording of yourself attempting it on your BBb should tell you whether it is out of reach or not. Listen critically, like the judges will. And surely your teacher, who knows your ability, can give you better advice than we can, who don't know your ability.

As tuba players, we don't have a lot of choices if we must play a bona fide concerto. And most of those were clearly intended for bass tubas rather than contrabass tubas. You might look into the Broughton if you don't like your chances with the Vaughan Williams.

Rick "envious of the relatively less demanding baroque and classical repertoire enjoyed by other instrumentalists" Denney

[windshieldbug]

I'm attempting to play the Vaughan Williams Concerto for Bass Tuba for the concerto competition at my university this year.Have some of you successfully performed this beast on a BBb?

I played it for the concerto competition at my undergrad music school (West Chester University) on my CC. Won, and played it with the university orchestra. No musicians were injured during the making of this post, nor then, either!

[DaTubaKid]

I recently performed the first two movements to the Vaughan Williams with my high school orchestra on a BBflat Miraphone 186. I was too lazy to try and learn the third, but it was probably for the best. My orchestra was having problems just doing the first two movements!

But I digress, here was some of my experiences. The mention of the problems with partials on the second movement is so true. The one flaw that I felt like I had when I performed was on the second movement, and it was just me not being all over that beginning section and having note changes being quite unclear. Another problem I noticed when I was listening to a recording of myself at one point, was that there were many times when the horn was just too "big" for the solo. There are so many points which require a delicate sound, yet the sound I kept getting out of my BBflat was just this huge sound the whole time, so it took away from those particular passages. On the contrary, while it makes the cadenza at the end of the first movement a little more difficult, it can also make it sound really good in another way. The low F on a BBflat can just sound huge and full if you do it right, whereas if you do it on an f, your dealing with the pedal tone.

So I think the Vaughan Williams can be done on a BBflat tuba, as long as you take time to overcome the downfalls of playing a large tuba like that. But that's just what I think.

[MartyNeilan]

**interesting to note, I posted this the same time as DaTubaKid (he hit enter first ) and there are a number of similarities.**

I have performed the 1st and 2nd movements on both CC and F. On CC, it was only out of necessity. The first movement actually does work on a contrabass tuba, but the character of the piece is different than intended. On the plus side, the low notes in the cadenza do have a nice "weighty" feel they don't on many F's. The second movement, while it can be played in a contrabass, really needs the lighter timbre and higher tessitura of a bass tuba to achieve the Romanza. I have not seriously tried the 3rd movement on a contrabass tuba and don't think it would work very well - even though you could play the notes, the 3rd movement would come off very different than intended. However, the 3rd movement really rips on both the piston and rotary F's I have played it on.

On the other hand...

Anything CAN be done: around 1987 or 88 a high school student in NJ named Basil Magro played the entire VW concerto on a beater Yamaha 321 BBb with the NJ AllState Wind Ensemble while they rehearsed for a Harvey Philips appearance. The character and style may have been a little different than RVW originally intended, but Basil NAILED the piece.

[porkchopsisgood]

The question is "do you think it's too hard to do on a BBb?"

I did it in high school that way. Couldn't tell ya whether it was hard to play because I was in high school, or because it was on the Mirafone 186....

but....

who cares? If you can still make music then have at it.....if you have the range for it do it to it.....

I play it on f now....the f tuba definitely gives it a more characteristically solo sound, but that doesn't mean it can't be done on BBb....

Good luck!

[Chuck Jackson]

I want to reply to the person who posted that the Hindemith sounds wrong on F. The title of the piece is Sonata for Bass Tuba and Piano. The bass tuba in Germany is an F. I have played the Hindemith on BBb, CC, and F. On F it lays well and sounds the best, IMHO. The loud stuff is edgy and raw, kinda like Hindemith's viola playing, and the 2nd movement is just plain easier on F. I prefer the Broughten on F, just easier for me. I am not attacking your position, just clarifying the standard nomeclature. It is said that Hindemith could play all the things he wrote on their respective instruments and was a cracker-jack piano player, to say the least. BTW, Bobo recorded the Hindemith on a CC 184-5U.

I have performed the Vaughn-Williams on an Alex BBb, then the same horn with the CC pipes on it, and F and have messed around on it on an EEb. It's hard on any instrument, but easiest for me on an F. No matter what, you have to nail it on any instrument. If there is one iota of doubt, don't do it. But if you have the stones and make very positive musical statements, who cares what you play it on. Good Luck.

Chuck

[TexTuba]

I could have swore that it was originally for Eb tuba. Anyways, I am working on it with a CC. I was told that it should be done on a bass tuba but so far I haven't had a problem with the range or anything. But I AM having a problem getting it to sound "right" for the Romanza section. To me, what I play it on sounds too woofy, if that makes sense. Good luck!!










Ralph

[Chuck Jackson]

The piece was written for the standard orchestral tuba in England in the 50's, the Besson 4 Valve compensating F. It actually is a no-brainer on F and gives me a bit of a fit on EEb. No matter what the instrument, you just got to sell it. When I was a kid(70's) I only owned one instrument, so I learned it on BBb then CC and played it like that until I purchased my first F tuba in 1999. I only wish I had had a Bass Tuba when I was younger, my life would have been a whole bunch easier.


Chuck

[windshieldbug]

Tom Stein and I were both finalists at Interlochen playing tuba-with-orchestra stuff on 4/4 CC tubas back in...well, nevermind...

Survived a few "bloody Fridays", did you?

Am I insane ...?

Hey- you're playing the tuba... it sure helps! And remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you anyway!...

[jmh3412]

Regradless of whether the instrument is a contrabass or bass tuba, perhaps a more persuasive argument would be the type of tuba.

Rotary valve, BB and CC's will invariably have a completely different sound from that heard at the first performance , and also in Fletch's Archetypal recording.

This is an English composition written for an English Compensating Tuba 3 +1, much derided in previous postings. The idiomatic English Tuba sound is noticeably different from that of continental tubists, and this must be a consideration when choosing instruments.

[Rick Denney]

This is an English composition written for an English Compensating Tuba 3 +1, much derided in previous postings. The idiomatic English Tuba sound is noticeably different from that of continental tubists, and this must be a consideration when choosing instruments.

Are you sure it was written for a 3+1 compensating tuba? That happened to be the instrument owned by Catelinet, but the more common instrument in British orchestras at the time, according to Cliff Bevan, was the five-valve uncompensated Barlow F tuba.

The instrument that most closely matches that instrument currently available is a Yamaha YFB-621, and none of the instruments from Besson are similar at all.

I have a recording of Catlinet performing the RVW made the day after the premiere. I would not use it as an example of how the music should be played. I'll leave it at that. John Fletchers approach could not possibly be more different than Catelinet's approach. One of the best and most British-sounding (meaning that the Vaughan Williams dry wit comes through) recordings that I own was made by Hans Nickel on a Hirsbrunner F tuba.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but there are quite a lot of recordings of this work that seem to me to fully explore the potential differences between instruments and techniques similar to and very different from the typical British bass tuba and performance practice. Perhaps I'm listening to the wrong things, but I can't tell that those recordings support the notion that there is a characteristic British approach and sound. Some are great performances, some not so great, and I see no correlation with the origins either of the perfomer or the instrument. Furthermore, I've never gotten the impression that British orchestras had quite the same respect for the favored son composer than those from the colonies and elsewhere. A prophet is not without honor except in his own home, perhaps, and maybe the folk-song roots of much of Vaughan Williams's work sounds more fresh to non-British ears.

Rick "wondering how many modern performers would use and prefer a Yamaha 621 for this work" Denney

[Mark]

One of the best and most British-sounding (meaning that the Vaughan Williams dry wit comes through) recordings that I own was made by Hans Nickel on a Hirsbrunner F tuba.

Nickel makes the low notes sound like he's playing a contrabass tuba though.

[Rick Denney]

Nickel makes the low notes sound like he's playing a contrabass tuba though.

Moreso than Fletcher? It didn't seem that way to me.

Rick "who thinks Fletch's sound has power and depth in the low register, and whose only complaint is that it is too serious" Denney

[Mark]

Nickel makes the low notes sound like he's playing a contrabass tuba though.

Moreso than Fletcher? It didn't seem that way to me.

Rick "who thinks Fletch's sound has power and depth in the low register, and whose only complaint is that it is too serious" Denney

I just listened to both and I do think Nickel's low register is better.

[kathott]

I have performed this concerto with orchestra on a Besson Sovereign Eb, also on an old Mirafone 180 F. I am playing it these days on a Yamaha 621 F, or a super 3 valve Imperial Eb.
In the case of the low notes on the three banger, I play them as fake notes and don’t attempt to compete with the orchestral tutti. Quite acceptable, if you don’t mind the timbre difference (on the very few notes that do occur).