How to stop being so classical

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anonymous4
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How to stop being so classical

Post by anonymous4 »

A banjo playing friend and I were having a beverage the other day, and he mentioned that his regular bass sub for his Dixieland/Fusion Band is leaving town. He was wondering if I wanted to sub occasionally in his group. You "never say no" of course, but now I'm terrified he might actually call me one day!!

I have always been a "read notes off the page" person and whenever i see them play, nobody is reading music. I have NO IDEA where I would even start with this kind of music.

Rather than ask every question I have right now, I'll just ask one. Where is "the beginning" if I want to start learning how to play jazz/Dixieland bass lines on my tuba? What is step 1?
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Jim Andrus »

Step 1 is to go listen to a lot of Dixieland music. Listen to groups that use tubas and also groups that use upright basses, and try to get an ear for the sound they're making. Try to sing the bass lines along and make up new basslines to go along with it. Dixieland is a style where you have to have a feel for it, which comes from listening to the tradition that's been passed down, and I find letting your creative part of your mind take over by singing the lines with a track where you can't know what pitches you're singing, just doing whatever feels right, is a great way to start to learn this style.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Heliconer »

Listen to the Firehouse 5 +2: they use tuba and it is easy to hear and replicate, very simple bass lines.

And most importantly: Keep It Simple Stupid (Kiss). You don't have to be flashy to be good, especially when starting out.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by groth »

Just listen to a lot of older recordings of Dixieland jazz and listen to what the tuba is doing. Hey, at least you have a possible trad-jazz gig..consider yourself lucky if he calls.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by swillafew »

Piano music is your friend.

You like to read, and you can see the melody, harmony, and of course your own part. Get to the library if you live near one and find the songs from the era you want. Cruise by the CDs and grab a few of them too. Playing along with a friend who can play the piano part is a good transitional step. Take the written part as a suggestion and try your own rhythms.

If you haven't done it before, find a harmony book and learn to spell the chord types that are present in these songs.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Eflatdoubler »

check out the app ireal pro. you can go into the forum section of it and find all tunes you want and it can play the changes. You can transpose them or repeat portions of them along with changing the tempo.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by roweenie »

As usual, Bloke is one step ahead of me.... :oops:

If I had a nickel for every time I was asked "how do you do it", or, "what 'trick' do you use", I'd have.....a "nose full of nickels".

To become truly proficient in ANY kind of music, you must be prepared to "live" in the music. The "moldy figs" that I came up with were not always proficient musicians, but they knew their s#!t about trad jazz (you'll notice I didn't say "dixieland jazz" - the difference in terms defines the degree of dedication, IMHO) because they truly loved and were devoted singlemindedly to the genre.

Listen to records - with that new-fangled thing called the internet, it's easier than it ever was. Brush up on your music theory, paying specific attention to voice leading, as you may not always be playing the root of any particular chord. Crafting a good bass line separates the sheep from the goats - if you can get your hands on the original sheet music (yes, there tunes were published "hits" at one time), memorize the bass lines, especially of the ones that have "quirky" chord changes - sometimes they are actually quite ingenious.

Technique is of secondary importance to the above-mentioned items. Generally speaking, almost no one is interested in a slick bass solo (jokes about people talking during the bass solo are as old as the hills), but if you play the wrong changes, or "step on someone else's note" one time too many, you won't be called back.

Finally, your time must be IMPECCABLE. You are primarily a rythym instrument, and EVERYONE (including the drummer) is looking to YOU to provide a rock-solid "pocket" to "hang their hat onto".

The days of clubs with regular trad jazz bands are unfortunately a thing of the past (I played in two different bands, simultaneously, for over 23 years, in a now defunct place in NYC, that offered live music 7 nights a week), so you won't have the benefit of listening to it live and have the opportunity to "sit in" - this means you must listen to even MORE recordings.

:arrow: If you're interested in learning "dixieland" in order to "get more gigs", you will likely miss my point, unfortunately.

Paul, do you wish to chime in?
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote:but someone has to really ~like~ this music in order to pursue the mastery of it in this manner.
For sure, and you may not take very well to some of the exemplary bands in the genre - if so, keep looking, for ones you like. Just to see what would come up, I groped around on youtube for "I found a new baby", which is a staple tune in this genre - and often pretty dismal. Several versions I liked plenty well with a string bass - Sidney Bechet 1932, Art Hodes 1968, etc. I found an oldie with deluxe tuba work on it - Clarence Williams. Generally the band I can listen to on youtube all day is the appropriately named "Tuba Skinny", and while it seems like they do practically every tune that ever survived from that era, this one doesn't show up.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by groth »

roweenie wrote:As usual, Bloke is one step ahead of me.... :oops:

If I had a nickel for every time I was asked "how do you do it", or, "what 'trick' do you use", I'd have.....a "nose full of nickels".

To become truly proficient in ANY kind of music, you must be prepared to "live" in the music. The "moldy figs" that I came up with were not always proficient musicians, but they knew their s#!t about trad jazz (you'll notice I didn't say "dixieland jazz" - the difference in terms defines the degree of dedication, IMHO) because they truly loved and were devoted singlemindedly to the genre.

Listen to records - with that new-fangled thing called the internet, it's easier than it ever was. Brush up on your music theory, paying specific attention to voice leading, as you may not always be playing the root of any particular chord. Crafting a good bass line separates the sheep from the goats - if you can get your hands on the original sheet music (yes, there tunes were published "hits" at one time), memorize the bass lines, especially of the ones that have "quirky" chord changes - sometimes they are actually quite ingenious.

Technique is of secondary importance to the above-mentioned items. Generally speaking, almost no one is interested in a slick bass solo (jokes about people talking during the bass solo are as old as the hills), but if you play the wrong changes, or "step on someone else's note" one time too many, you won't be called back.

Finally, your time must be IMPECCABLE. You are primarily a rythym instrument, and EVERYONE (including the drummer) is looking to YOU to provide a rock-solid "pocket" to "hang their hat onto".

The days of clubs with regular trad jazz bands are unfortunately a thing of the past (I played in two different bands, simultaneously, for over 23 years, in a now defunct place in NYC, that offered live music 7 nights a week), so you won't have the benefit of listening to it live and have the opportunity to "sit in" - this means you must listen to even MORE recordings.

:arrow: If you're interested in learning "dixieland" in order to "get more gigs", you will likely miss my point, unfortunately.

Paul, do you wish to chime in?
I don't think that's accurate to say, that if you call it Dixieland Jazz you don't have the dedication. All Traditional and Dixieland originated out of the same place and semantics play no part in diminishing someone's dedication of the genre based on verbiage.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Donn »

Mileage may vary depending on generation and region, but out here I don't think the "Dixieland" image problems have anything to do with the tune "Dixie." It's entirely about a style of playing - and naturally the same shadow falls over "traditional jazz" inasmuch it has come to be applied to the same crowd. The name isn't the problem.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by jmdavis »

I know less about music than anyone commenting. But when I think of Dixieland I think of the tradition of people makng their own music. There's a feeling to that and I assume that may be what Bloke is talking about. Here's something I never knew existed. There is definitely feeling in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DkGC7583MmQ" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Last edited by jmdavis on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by roweenie »

Everyone's points are well taken, and I get it.

My problem with the term "dixieland jazz" is probably formed because of the numerous bad experiences I've had over the years playing with club date musicians donning Styrofoam boaters and white and red striped vests, caring less than nothing about the style, blasting insensitive and corny versions of "Five Foot Two", and calling it "authentic dixieland" (meanwhile privately sneering at what they perceive to be hokey and simplistic music).

I didn't mean to offend anyone, really....we're all a product of our past experiences to some degree, I guess...... :tuba:
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by pjv »

Learn the tunes from memory. Learn how the melodies go and know exactly what chord should go with them. (Actually this is something that pertains to all music you play, whether or not it's La Sacre or Happy Birthday.)

If I asked you to sing O When the Saints you probably could, and most probably could also figure out which chords go with it because you've heard this tune 1000x in your life, consciously and unconsciously. So OWtSaints is a good start. It's also a (16 bar) blues progression which are very often used in dixi/trad jazz.
Next tune; anything on the list that rings a bell? Sunny Side of the Street? Saint Louis Blues? Whatever. If you can sing the tune and hear the chords that go with it you're on the right track.
Play the tunes often (when washing dishes or driving the car) to get them in your head. This will undoubtedly help to make you feel much more at ease once you actually play with someone else because even if you "mess up" you know the tune. You know where you are and you know where to jump back in cause the tune is familiar territory. This in turn gives you a foundation to play tunes you don't know because you'll begin to recognise how the tunes work (structure, etc).

Step #2=DO.
Play as much as possible with other players and in front of an audience. Start out on the streets with "motivated amateurs" and go from there.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by roweenie »

bloke wrote:
ok...I get the connotation:

Top-drawer dixieland (ref: 1950's Dixieland Revival) was downgraded in the 1970's/1980's via silly/stereotypical "Gay Nineties Barbershop Quartet"-ish costumes, pedestrian repertoire, and mediocre musicianship/technique/ensemble via "musicians" who view themselves as "too good to be playing this gig"...
Image

I've played more than my share of these before mentioned gigs, and I can truly say I DON'T miss them, even one iota. Not only were they musically painful, but they were also highly insulting to me, personally. It's essentially like telling someone that their passion is something stupid and worthless.

There's a young up-and-coming cornet player here in New York (mid-twenties) who is so into Bix and that Chicago-style of jazz that not only does he sound like Bix, he actually looks like Bix, and he dresses like Bix. I relish every gig I get to play with him, because he is a true student of the music, he loves and lives the music, he wants me to play bass saxophone (!), and most of all, him and his dedication reminds a much-older, deeply-jaded person of exactly why he started playing this genre in the first place.... :tuba:
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by roweenie »

I can't say I've ever played one, but I've never heard anyone rave about them.....

The only Chinese bass sax I've ever seen is a Conn/Buescher-style copy - I've never seen a Selmer-style one, although I'm sure they exist.

FWIW, I've never been really jazzed (no pun intended) of the actual Selmer bass sax, either.

Conn and Buescher bass saxes pop up from time to time, but they ain't cheap anymore (a much-older-than-me moldy fig jazz musician told me that back in the 50s and 60s, they could be had somewhat regularly in pawn shops for around $50.......!)

You have the benefit of exemplary repair skills, so I can easily see you buying one that needs work for considerably less (but sadly not for $50..... :( )
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
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Re: How to stop being so classical

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Did someone mention moldy figs?

John Sandford mentioned that band in one of his murder mysteries. Good writer, if you're into thrillers set in the Minnesota area.

It turns out my brother plays with them, and has for decades.

Years ago I was asked to provide trombone on one piece, I think it was Just a Closer Walk with Thee, for some special retirement event. Like the OP, at the time I was a sheet music only person. So I asked my brother what to do.

He said I could probably get away with mostly just playing sol-la-ti-do into the next chord. (not good advice for the bass line maybe, but that's not the point.) Then he added the critical piece of information: "you always know what chord you're on, don't you?" No, I didn't, at the time it had never occurred to me to listen for that, it was one of those blinding insight moments.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by pecktime »

Hey Bloke- I have a Chinese Bass sax. It's a copy of the modern Selmer Bass sax. I got it through Wessex a few years ago- I assume it's made by Jinbao.

There are two bass sax makers in China as far as I know- One makes the newer Selmer style (looks like a big Baritone sax, easier to play) and the other makes the classic 1920s style (foghorn sound, bad ergonomics etc).

I'm very happy with the Wessex bass sax. It needs a decent mouthpiece to sound like a bass sax- I found an old 'pickle-barrel' on ebay that works.

Like all bass saxes there is a big learning curve.

I play mainly trad jazz on it- you can hear it on this album:

https://thedancinganddrinkingsociety.ba ... r-the-days" target="_blank
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by opus37 »

timothy42b wrote:Did someone mention moldy figs?

John Sandford mentioned that band in one of his murder mysteries. Good writer, if you're into thrillers set in the Minnesota area.

It turns out my brother plays with them, and has for decades.

Years ago I was asked to provide trombone on one piece, I think it was Just a Closer Walk with Thee, for some special retirement event. Like the OP, at the time I was a sheet music only person. So I asked my brother what to do.

He said I could probably get away with mostly just playing sol-la-ti-do into the next chord. (not good advice for the bass line maybe, but that's not the point.) Then he added the critical piece of information: "you always know what chord you're on, don't you?" No, I didn't, at the time it had never occurred to me to listen for that, it was one of those blinding insight moments.
I think there are versions of the Moldy Figs in several areas around the country. The Minnesota Moldy Figs played regularly at the Emporium of Jazz in Mendota. I think it is closed now. The lead trumpet was Dave Braun (aka Tekoil manufacturer). His real job was an inventor for 3M. He's been retired for a while now.
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Re: How to stop being so classical

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote:
Frank Assunto wrote:Traditional jazz, in my estimation, can only be played by people who are old enough to have lived it. Anything else is a copy. You have a lot of young bands that should like, or try to sound like, the old timers. I don't know; it just doesn't come off to me,"
Sure, that makes sense. If the young bands weren't playing good jazz, then it's a sure thing that sounding like old-timers wasn't going to come off for him, or anyone. That doesn't mean there isn't any such thing as traditional jazz. As a category, it's kind of loose by definition (since arguably a performer who exactly copies jazz performances isn't a jazz player.) But the reason it's "traditional" is exactly because it's played by people who didn't live it, but rather inherited it.

And it's traditional because it has a stable, recognizable form. When I've jammed with people, they usually want to break out the fake books and play Miles and stuff. We aren't old enough to have lived that, either, really, but it could be 300 years old and still be Miles Davis, John Coltrane, whoever in a much more fluid current of popular music of its day. Not traditional - until players manage to make it into some kind of tradition. Like people like Eddie Condon did for traditional jazz. Its roots are back there with Sidney Bechet, Louis Armstrong, King Oliver, but traditional jazz as we know it isn't inherited directly from them, or at least it sure doesn't sound like it, it has a more modern swing that sounds a lot more like bands from the '40s. My point being, if we go back to the beginning looking for the people who lived it, they might not even recognize the tradition they spawned, and that too is characteristic of a traditional form. If there's ever a traditional Miles jazz, it won't be carbon copies of Miles performances, but something else that adapted his influence to a viable stable musical form that other musicians can run with.
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