Miraphone 188 discussion

The bulk of the musical talk
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by joh_tuba »

bloke wrote:
bort wrote:WHY did I sell my old 188?
Rhetorically, that person is asking themselves that same question, and is toying with the idea of the re-acquisition of one.

No tuba is a be-all/end-all. Every tuba defines trade-offs.
Lots of wisdom in there.

I've also declared many horns as unacceptable that another accomplished player has picked up, invested significant time into, and sounded extraordinarily wonderful on.

I've bought many many tubas over the years, most of which I don't miss at all. The one horn I do regret and may eventually buy back was smaller than the 188. It had incredible clarity, agility, and a sound to die for BUT intonation only a mom could love. It was a bit of a deal with the devil and in retrospect if I had invested the time learning to work around the issues I would have been better off.
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by joh_tuba »

flamingo19518
bugler
bugler
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Alan Baer's Miraphone 188

Post by flamingo19518 »

bloke wrote:I should stop second-hand quoting Mr. A.B., and this will be the last.
I've been told that there is a definite goal/objective is to enjoy a long and productive career of excellent playing for decades, and that there is a belief there that normal-sized instruments -combined with very smart playing - will assist in achieving this goal.
isn't that the objective all players?
User avatar
anonymous4
bugler
bugler
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:24 am

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by anonymous4 »

Ok, so I love my Miraphone as much as the next guy, but there's something about all this that still isn't making sense. If the sound and clarity that comes from the Miraphone is superior, why isn't it the horn that everyone uses in their symphony?

I'm an optimist, so I want to think that being musical is the primary focus of players that can make it to the top level of the profession. For that reason, I don't quite buy the "tuba players like to be macho" explanation for the proliferation of 6/4 tubas.

Derek's post also leaves some holes. Why is there a "need" for a 6/4 and is this because the tuba player feels like they need it, or the other musicians?

My theory, in American orchestras, everyone is just accustomed to the big, fluffy, sound that comes from the York style tubas. That's what "professional" sounds like, and that's what they expect. A Miraphone type sound would not fit with people's expectations.
Dan Tuba
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:21 pm
Location: Cameron, NC

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Dan Tuba »

I really like the tuba/low brass sound in this audio clip from the CSO. https://youtu.be/dGaQBlt5jfU" target="_blank
Conn 25J
Holton 3+1 "Monster" EEb
Wessex XL
Giddings and Kelly Mouthpieces
Ace
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:46 am
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Ace »

Dan Tuba wrote:I really like the tuba/low brass sound in this audio clip from the CSO. https://youtu.be/dGaQBlt5jfU" target="_blank" target="_blank
Love that clip. What a great brass section sound. Thanks for posting, Dan.

Ace
Michael Bush
FAQ Czar
Posts: 2338
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Michael Bush »

Dan Tuba wrote:I really like the tuba/low brass sound in this audio clip from the CSO. https://youtu.be/dGaQBlt5jfU" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Someone (bloke would be a good bet, based both on my memory and on per capita post count of those who have played it) has commented before about how that particular tuba can be played with a more focused and direct, "German, Miraphone-ish" sound than one might think based on its shape.

It's a breathtaking clip, regardless. Thanks for linking it.
Michael Bush
FAQ Czar
Posts: 2338
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Michael Bush »

bloke wrote: the really large tubas were designed and built with the intention of their players playing them with normal levels of effort, in wind bands, and imitating the sounds of double basses.
The section I'm now playing in since the move: Four 186es (three CC, one BBb) and an Olds 99. We're doing it wrong!
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Donn »

Maybe it would be interesting to know what music was driving the big tubas. School band literature?

It does seem that the "sound concept" / instrumentation changed a lot in the early 20th century or thereabouts. The old charts call the tuba "Eb bass", and "Bb bass" is evidently something like a euphonium doubling the 3rd trombone. That includes some old Sousa compositions, but later when he was in his prime as a bandleader, I believe his tuba lineup was all BBb - including a couple very big looking raincatchers. I don't think there were any Miraphone 188s at any point, though.

I have a string bass, and a big Holton tuba, and I don't really get the connection.
Michael Bush
FAQ Czar
Posts: 2338
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Michael Bush »

Donn wrote:Maybe it would be interesting to know what music was driving the big tubas. School band literature?
There is an old anecdote that at least as far as the increasing size of Conn tubas was concerned, it was driven by the growth of the tree out back that they bent the bottom bow around! :lol:
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Donn »

anonymous4 wrote:So, if "smaller" tubas with more clarity are better, why are the big 6/4 tubas so widespread?
I was doing my thing this afternoon that most closely resembles "practice", and I snaked out my King 1240, for a 4/4 example to compare with the 6/4 I'd been playing (Holton short stroke, kind of like a 105 with weird valves.) The King is easier to play, and it may be a superior bass in normal band music thanks to its more compact sound; the low end is thinner, but easier to spit out in a passage. It has a warm, pleasant, likable sound. But the Holton sounds more like a tuba - I mean, not that the King sounds like anything else, but the Holton is almost a caricature of the tuba. Far from being a tuba that's best used to sound like something else, I'd say it's for when you really crave the sound of a tuba enough to put up with the issues. I suppose technically I'm referring a tonal signature of partials that's characteristic of the conical brass - euphonium, tuba, flugelhorn each in their own way.

Just an idea about why 6/4, that doesn't depend on anyone being morally or intellectually defective.
User avatar
Douglas
Low Brass Teacher
Low Brass Teacher
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:05 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Douglas »

Casca Grossa wrote:
joh_tuba wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE6Nt5FXK-g

Is this a 188?
I believe it's a 186. Ask Tom at Mack Brass. It's his student.
That’s my brother, Eric, and it’s an old 186 CC.
Doug Black, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Music, Alabama A&M University
Eastman Tuba Artist
User avatar
anonymous4
bugler
bugler
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:24 am

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by anonymous4 »

Hey, so I know this thread is so last October, but I only now got around to listening to the Prokofiev recording that has been discussed in this thread. (End of football season means time to catch up on listening!)

I never PM'ed to ask for the recording, but through process of elimination I have figured out who Bloke was talking about and what the recording is. I have some questions/observations:

1. That guy reads Tubenet!!?? I didn't think anyone that "tuba famous" would care what us unwashed repairmen, band directors, students, and wannabes were saying here.

2. The recording is indeed excellent. However, I can't help but think about the people surrounding him on the stage as well. There were some in that brass section, that even then, had "different" opinions about how to play. If I recall, there is a rather famous (infamous?) solo recording by the bass trombonist from that orchestra that many today reference as an example of how NOT to play. If you plucked up this tuba player, and Mirafone 188, out of 1987, and threw them into a 2017 version of this orchestra, would the sound still fit in the same perfect way as it does on the recording? We aren't on an island. The equipment, and the way others play, inform our own decisions on equipment and how to play.

3. In the conversation the player says he laments switching. However, I don't recall this person ever using anything other than a Miraphone 188 during their career. Is this more a commentary by this player on the tuba players "in general" switching to bigger horns?

Enjoyed catching up on the parts of this discussion I missed. Thanks!
User avatar
J.c. Sherman
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2116
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:11 pm
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by J.c. Sherman »

bloke wrote:A very prominent player with an extremely prominent job (large well-paid high-profile full-time orchestra - an orchestra known for being capable of a very robust sound...and who, typically of top-job types of tuba players, doesn't enjoy bragging on himself on TubeNet) JUST NOW sent me a link to a professionally released (cd) recording of two Prokofiev works.

He's very proud indeed (as well he should be) of the sound he put on that recording (nearly three decades ago) with a sheet metal 188, and (like others here) wonders why he ever switched to other tubas.

most models of 6/4 tubas...??
OK ...I guess... to play once a tuba playing *job in an orchestra is acquired, but I would never use one for an audition (where a person's playing is more exposed and more scrutinized than any other time during their career).
YCB-826...?? probably an exception, but (again) not as large as some of the others and a tuba that offers a great deal of clarity (along with workable intonation) with its breadth of sound.
--------------------------------------------------
*as I've suggested here many times, arguably about the most difficult job in an orchestra to acquire, but also about the easiest one to keep

<sidebar>

The "ideal" C tuba...
One model approached perfection, and is currently mothballed.
It is the model 2000/2155 (same instrument...possibly sheet metal bows vs. manufactured tubing bows). The intonation is no-slide-pulling amazing, and the low range is superior to that of the 188. HOWEVER, the mouthpipe tube is (opinion of bloke) too d@mn big, which defines a "dull" sound. I have put 45SL-P 'pipes on two of them, the resonance (a large 4/4 tuba, rather than a wannabe 5/4) opened up (beautiful 12th partial bouquet of sound), and they were (again) probably the world's finest-ever production large-4/4 C tubas. I owned neither of them. I did acquire one a couple of years ago, but was offered too much for it to afford to keep it, and the finish was in too close to mint condition to be tearing off the factory mouthpipe tube. I STILL may (??) end up with one of these someday...if it's ugly enough and cheap enough. I still have not finished those (extraordinarily promising) 4/4 1920's Buescher projects... :roll:

<sidebar>
My current go-to contrabass is my 2000... for those reasons. If you ditch the receiver with the weird "venturi," it is a stellar performer and can put a bottom on any orchestral situation. And you can play quintet if you must.

It's exceptional, efficient, and plenty.

J.c.S.
Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium, Cleveland State University
Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass
http://www.jcsherman.net
User avatar
Raul I. Rodriguez
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:16 pm
Location: Texas State University-San Marcos
Contact:

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Raul I. Rodriguez »

Yellow Brass

Stock

Since 1983
****************************************
Raul I. Rodri­guez
Professor of Tuba and Euphonium
Texas State University
Principal Tuba-Breckenridge Music Festival
Eg88
lurker
lurker
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:15 am
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Eg88 »

Interesting to read this thread since I’m soon about to try a Miraphone 188 in my orchestra. Can anyone recommend some recordings were the tubist plays this horn?

And by the way the tuba I will try is marked Miraphone 88 but I’ve learned it is the same?
User avatar
anotherjtm2
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:18 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Alan Baer's Miraphone 188

Post by anotherjtm2 »

bort wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:16 pm Not sure I realized yours was a handmade 188, but even before knowing that it seemed like a great tuba. I can easily picture myself getting another 188 at some point -- I just can't decide if I want that to be sooner or later.

Joe is right, as a tuba player, I love playing a big tuba -- it's fun. But realistically, 188 is a good size, point and shoot, and about the easiest to hold tuba that I have ever found. Not the most perfect tuba at everything, but overall a great compromise. Is it possible that other tubas are better? Of course. But at what point do I stop chasing that idea, and just happily accept the 188 and move on? I'll probably still wish it was a little bigger, but maybe mouthpiece selection can help me out with that. Or possibly the memory of 5+ years of constant tuba buying/selling will help me to just get over it!

Question -- I've always heard that Miraphone is receptive to custom orders, with the mindset of "if you pay for it, we will build it." Could they build a NEW tuba with the sheet-metal bows?

If I did go back to a 188, I'm considering buying a new one (most modern version of everything, no inherited problems, etc). Might also encourage me to stay with it long-term, too! My only concern is that the new 188s might not have quite the same "zip" or "magic" that the old ones had (like my former 188).

TLDR; hooray 188!
Roughly when did Miraphone stop making sheet metal bows for tubas like the 188?
John Morris
- 1960s CC Scherzer/Sander
Ted Cox
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:38 am
Location: Oklahoma City
Contact:

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by Ted Cox »

Interesting to read all the thoughts regarding Alexander and Miraphone tubas. Stevie Ray Vaughan didn’t just play one guitar. The five tubas I play in the Oklahoma City Philharmonic are: Alexander 164 CC (2004). Alexander 163 CC (1962) solid nickel silver. Alexander 163 CC(1980) my “go to” horn. Miraphone 186 (1975) my first tuba purchase of same year. Alexander 155 in F. 1960. All of them have five valves and three of the CC tubas have different length 5th valves. No one knows or cares what tuba I bring to work - I pretty much sound the same on any tuba. Spend more time on sound rather than equipment. The doorway to beautiful sound is always and forever - air
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by bort »

Wow, what an old thread. How many tubas have I been through since I first posted it? And how little sense does the thread make with all the missing posts?

Things are largely the same for me:
* Miraphone 188 remains one of my favorite tubas
* At some point, I'll own another
* But not yet

And I agree with Ted, I sound pretty much like myself on every tuba I play. And nobody cares what you play -- right now, I'm playing an old 3v Martin Medium Eb tuba in orchestra with zero complaints from me or anyone else. Nice sound, plenty of sound, and can definitely still "get the hand" if I push it too hard. Yes, other instruments would be easier to use, but they all have different limitations. At least for this cycle, there's nothing the old Martin Eb doesn't do well, and frankly, it sounds pretty dang sweet.
UTSAtuba
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:40 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Miraphone 188 discussion

Post by UTSAtuba »

I’m not sure why, but a lot of the original posts are missing in this thread.

Anywho, I noticed Alan Baer seemed to be playing a 188 last night for the Bruckner 7, and was curious if this is a more recent development or just an ‘artistic’ call by the conductor (trumpets were using their rotary horns too).
Post Reply