oedipoes wrote:You could buy something like a new Alex 163 with less effort (and money) I guess... but I do think that Miraphone would build your tuba to special order as well, some of the sponsors could answer that for you.
Thanks... yeah, the cost of a new 188 is steadily creeping upwards, so I guess the final cost might end up near a 163 anyway. Might be worth finding out, and then decide from there.
PS -- Billy, I'm surprised you didn't, once again, tell me that I should have kept my old 188.
Billy M. wrote:I believe we've discussed this before: something along the lines of looking at a majority of the tuba players that played during the middle-late 20th century and you'll find most playing horns like Alex, a few Cervenys, Miraphone on the West-Coast, and some 'big' King tubas. Nothing near the size of the 6/4 York in Chicago. Mr. Jacobs was a great player and his pedagogy will always be a part of history. However, maybe the whole 'playing on a 6/4 thing' may not. If the premier tuba positions in the world are seeing a reduction in size, even with the advent of even more 6/4 York copies coming out, is it possible we're not seeing a resurgence or renaissance, but rather seeing it's twilight?
I think because of the extreme clarity that Jacobs put on the front end of notes the 6/4 worked very well for him. Not a lot of other players can play like that and achieve the clarity of Jacobs so maybe a 4/4 or 5/4 would help them.
There are many times where improved clarity is what is called for, but you usually do not want to give up too much "depth" of sound in order to achieve that. The Alex 163 has a more powerful low end than a 188 and the overall sound is a bit "darker." But one of its unique traits is that it has a the ability to "cut through the mix" when you add a little edge to it. I think this trait helps the 163 live equally well in both band and orchestral settings.
Speaking of band, some of the discussion above relates to the 6/4 york-style horn perhaps being the better fit in a band situation, and I fully agree with that idea. As one of two tuba players in a band with no string bass, I will often play the string bass part where it makes sense. A credible "pizzicato" imitation is one of the more challenging things to pull off on a tuba. I find that my PCK allows me to do a much better job on the pizz passages than with any smaller instrument. This is one area where the extra brightness usually just sounds bad.
Alexander 163 CC 5V, MW Thor, Mel Culbertson Neptune, B&S Symphonie F 6V
100% only interested in a modern 163. They are rare, though, and I couldn't scrape together the dough around this time last year for that gem of a 163 that was for sale here. I probably can't (or won't) afford a brand new one, but something 10 years old or less would be pretty sweet.
bort wrote:100% only interested in a modern 163. They are rare, though, and I couldn't scrape together the dough around this time last year for that gem of a 163 that was for sale here. I probably can't (or won't) afford a brand new one, but something 10 years old or less would be pretty sweet.
Doesn't help that the asking price of a new Alex 163 at the Horn Guys went up by $1,100 in the past couple of months or so. Granted, they haven't gone up much since I bought mine some six years ago, but the Euro was really high back then. Guess it makes sense for Alexander to maintain their price premium compared to Miraphone - many of those models are now sporting 5-figure prices.
Alexander 163 CC 5V, MW Thor, Mel Culbertson Neptune, B&S Symphonie F 6V
bort wrote:100% only interested in a modern 163. They are rare, though, and I couldn't scrape together the dough around this time last year for that gem of a 163 that was for sale here. I probably can't (or won't) afford a brand new one, but something 10 years old or less would be pretty sweet.
Doesn't help that the asking price of a new Alex 163 at the Horn Guys went up by $1,100 in the past couple of months or so. Granted, they haven't gone up much since I bought mine some six years ago, but the Euro was really high back then. Guess it makes sense for Alexander to maintain their price premium compared to Miraphone - many of those models are now sporting 5-figure prices.
I thought the prices looked a little higher... but for a handmade tuba, it still doesn't seem like a bad price. It's a narrower-than-expected gap between the new prices for the 188 and 163, but I think that's because the price of the 188 is a little higher than I remembered it to be.
Ok, I'm entering this entertainment of a discussion here. First of all, here is the equipment I play:
CC tuba- Walter Nirschl 6/4
CC tuba- B&S PT6 3198 5/4
F tuba- B&S MRP
F tuba- Miraphone Petruschka (kindly on loan from Sotto Voce)
The smallest tuba I played in my career was a PT4 (4/4)...back in 2000-2002...9th grade to 10th grade in high school. Since then I've had my PT6 (which I've owned since 2002)...and recently added a larger Nirschl to my line up.
I get into discussions a lot of times with students, enthusiasts, yadda yadda, and a lot of them "think" the instrument is the secret to success. Yes, to a degree, it absolutely is. I know I sound better on a quality German horn than a crappy Chinese instrument (sorry, just putting it out there). I also know a quality instrument vs. a student level tuba sound much different in a quality musician's hands. So yes, quality is important. BUT, and here is where I strongly disagree...SIZE MATTERS, and furthermore SIZE dictates FUNCTION.
The majority of top level tubists in this country (and yes I like to refer to America vs. Europe because they are two extremely different musical environments with different concept of sound) own a 6/4 for a reason, because they NEED it. I bought a 6/4 because I NEED it. My PT6 just wasn't cutting it anymore (and there goes my Buffet sponsorship...haha). Recent auditions have told me that I need to step up toward a wider and fuller sound, and as hard as I could try, the PT6 wasn't getting me the results I needed in that circumstance.
Joe, Bort, others...a 6/4 can play JUST as clear as a 3/4 tuba (and ironically I've played 3/4 poor quality tubas that play less clear than the best quality 6/4s). In the right hands, and with the right amount of work, I can achieve the clarity I need with the horn I have at that particular moment. I fully believe that. Try me on it, I can prove it to you. It's all about the musician holding the instrument. There is a reason we are called artists, and I have the power to mold my sound just like a painter can take a blank canvas and create a beautiful artwork.
So it's not about the clarity...so why do own a 6/4? Because I need that color to satisfy my sound needs for whatever I'm doing. The PT6 is a little more narrow, piercing sound. The Nirschl is a more enveloping sound, so depends on what I'm going for. Clarity will still be there, trust me.
Take it from someone like me, who's on the front lines of the battlefield trying to obtain Tuba Glory (with some fantastic fellow warriors around me)...6/4s rule, 5/4s rule, 4/4s rule. Play what makes you happy.
Derek, thanks for the thoughtful response. My issue isn't so much that I can't attain clarity on my 5/4 Willson, as it is that I simply feel more comfortable with something a little smaller -- my body, brain, and ears like it when I push a 4/4 tuba harder, instead of exhibiting more control with a 5/4. That seems a bit counter-intuitive to WANT to work harder, and I'm even contradicting myself for the reasons why I sold my 188 (I wanted something that plays bigger).
I played 4/4 tubas for about 17 years before buying into the bigger horns, so my preference for 4/4 tubas might just be part of who I am as a player. And what's easier, changing the tuba, or changing the player?!
Hello. I play a 188 and haven't looked back. Great sound, ergonomics and quality. I visited the Mirafone factory, and after playing the standard 188 and gold 188, settled on the gold. I ordered one off the shelf from a west coast dealer.
Previously, for about 28 seasons, I primarily used a 186 CC (now my home practice instrument) and occasionally, an early model Hirsbrunner. Big Tubas: In the period between the 186 & 188 tubas, I played 3 seasons on a Rudy 5/4 CC, and 1 season on a Holton 345 BBb (on specific rep.). I also play tested the Yamayork, PT 6, Neptune, vintage Alex CC and Holton CC.
The 188 is a tuba which may gain more popularity as playing styles and tastes change. I'm a big fan of the classic American sound, but I just don't want to play that way. The 188 delivery of tone is flexible - a "brass sound", as opposed to a "bass sound".
Last edited by kathott on Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Schmenge Kaiser EEb, 3 valve (two rotors, one piston), with a Kosicup mouthpiece (9.2 mm)
I know which recording you speak of and yes, it is a reference-level recording of one the best recorded tuba sounds you will ever hear. The player-in-question is fantastic on whatever he plays (another more recent example of his F tuba playing also comes to mind).
Listening to that CD again makes me drool...no matter what tuba he's playing!!
Josh Wirt
Elmhurst University - Applied Professor of Tuba/Euphonium
Elmhurst Symphony - Principal Tuba
Wintergreen Music Festival - Principal Tuba
New Chicago Brass
Ottava Quartet
I know which recording you speak of and yes, it is a reference-level recording of one the best recorded tuba sounds you will ever hear. The player-in-question is fantastic on whatever he plays (another more recent example of his F tuba playing also comes to mind).
Listening to that CD again makes me drool...no matter what tuba he's playing!!
I know which recording you speak of and yes, it is a reference-level recording of one the best recorded tuba sounds you will ever hear. The player-in-question is fantastic on whatever he plays (another more recent example of his F tuba playing also comes to mind).
Listening to that CD again makes me drool...no matter what tuba he's playing!!
Josh Wirt
Willing to share (here or by PM)? I want to know!
Second that! I would love to hear this recording!
Keith
Keith Sanders
Northwestern State University- MM in Music Performance- Spring 2017
Thomas Edison State College- BA in Music- 2010
I know which recording you speak of and yes, it is a reference-level recording of one the best recorded tuba sounds you will ever hear. The player-in-question is fantastic on whatever he plays (another more recent example of his F tuba playing also comes to mind).
Listening to that CD again makes me drool...no matter what tuba he's playing!!
Josh Wirt
Ok, I've listened a few times, and I think my best description of the sound is "simple" -- and I mean that in the best possible way. It's clean, direct, projects like crazy -- Wrong coast, but it feels very New York to me: "Hey, I'm the tuba. I'm going to play back here, ok? What do you want from me?"
Love it. That's the kind of sound I always wanted to achieve with my 188 in orchestra. I can only hope it sounded remotely like that. That sound plus the ergonomics of that tuba? Wait... WHY did I sell my old 188?
Yes, exactly. Unmistakable sound.
