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Yellow brass or gold brass?

Any substantial modifications beyond stock?

Still using it?

Thanks for the details, Joe!

Good enough for AB, good enough for anyone else!

I wonder if he ever uses the 188 instead of the 6/4 in the NYP...

I totally remember that Block. When we met I was a 186 guy and lover it. Versatile and fun to play. I do love my 6/4 York, but its a beast to move around at 26 pounds. The York is the reason I use a tuba stand.

Does AB still comment on the forum?

It seems like the top orchestra players are using all kinds of stuff with their orchestras, and not just the usual 6/4 CC York copy.

Casca Grossa wrote:Can't wait until the for sale board gets flooded with 5 and 6 quarter instruments so people can get their hands on a 188 because their playing needs have changed. Better buy up those Miraphones before the price goes through the roof.

Hey, I represent that remark!

bloke wrote:<sidebar>

As two examples of large tubas that are really easy to play, the M-W 5450 and YCB-826 (prices are very different) put out a bunch of sound with ease - without a tendency to produce a diffuse/unfocused sound, and can be played in tune without doing handstands.

The YCB-826 is labeled a "6/4", but is - arguably - one of the smaller "6/4"-classified tubas.

</sidebar>

As long as we are second hand quoting symphony players out of context..

I've heard rumor of a prominent orchestral player that ultimately decided the Yamaha was too 'tubby' to satisfy his needs. I think they might have settled on a Baer but even if that's correct it doesn't mean they haven't changed their mind.

Personal commentary:
If the 6/4 Yamaha can't meet standard for clarity I have a hard time imagining *any* American style 6/4 tuba ever making standard. I have limited experience with either but am disinclined to view the Baer as a 'better' instrument than the Yamaha.

The MW5450 is a perfectly nice horn but, in my mind, not particularly physically or sonically big compared to a PT6 for example. Of course, the PT6 loses the clarity game relative to a 5450.

Sooo... What are the biggest sounding(not necessarily size) horns past or present that offer truly stellar clarity combined with acceptable intonation? Something like the 188 might start rising to the top of that search.

joh_tuba wrote:Sooo... What are the biggest sounding(not necessarily size) horns past or present that offer truly stellar clarity combined with acceptable intonation? Something like the 188 might start rising to the top of that search.

I have been chasing my tail with exactly this for quite a while. Frankly, it is starting to feel like a 188 with a large mouthpiece is about the closest that I will get.

That, or a modern era (modern intonation) Alex 163.

Hrmm... Miraphones ad Alexanders... Maybe all of our old school tuba hero's really had gotten it right, long long ago!

Interesting thread. So, if "smaller" tubas with more clarity are better, why are the big 6/4 tubas so widespread? This isn't totally the fault of tuba players, since audition committees are the ones hiring the players that are playing those BAT's. Perhaps it's because the other instruments like that sound? I knew a first trombone player that could never get enough fundamental and always wanted me to play out as much as possible.

bloke wrote:
The less clarity, the more easily the tuba sound can be lost - particularly when there's a whole bunch of white noise (loud trumpets/cymbals/timps/piccolo/high violin fff shimmer/etc.)...

..."a whole bunch of fundamental"...I'm not sure that's particularly useful.

^This is something I have noticed from the 6/4 York-o-phone tuba sound in orchestras. Usually, lots of "fluff" in the sound, the sound is too wide and diffuse, and lacks clarity and 'bite', and actually doesn't project as well as many 5/4 and 4/4 tubas. And with the uber-round/uber-'dark' modern tuba sound one often hears; that big 6/4 tuba sounds WOOFY in an orchestra. The 6/4 tuba sound, IMO, actually works better in a large band setting since the tubas ARE the "basses". I still think the 4/4 and 5/4 tubas generally sound better in an orchestra (one tuba), where the tuba 'bridges' the trombones with the string basses.

toobagrowl wrote:

bloke wrote:
The less clarity, the more easily the tuba sound can be lost - particularly when there's a whole bunch of white noise (loud trumpets/cymbals/timps/piccolo/high violin fff shimmer/etc.)...

..."a whole bunch of fundamental"...I'm not sure that's particularly useful.

^This is something I have noticed from the 6/4 York-o-phone tuba sound in orchestras. Usually, lots of "fluff" in the sound, the sound is too wide and diffuse, and lacks clarity and 'bite', and actually doesn't project as well as many 5/4 and 4/4 tubas. And with the uber-round/uber-'dark' modern tuba sound one often hears; that big 6/4 tuba sounds WOOFY in an orchestra. The 6/4 tuba sound, IMO, actually works better in a large band setting since the tubas ARE the "basses". I still think the 4/4 and 5/4 tubas generally sound better in an orchestra (one tuba), where the tuba 'bridges' the trombones with the string basses.

I like the tuba sound in this orchestra's performance of the thrilling finale to Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2. I suspect a Miraphone 188 in the hands of a really good player would produce the kind of sound we hear in this video.

https://youtu.be/gRdSLMhvnMM?t=2759" target="_blank

Ace who has pity for any trumpet player having this work on the schedule

Mr. Baer posted on his Facebook page that he was going to use the Ursus for Mahler 5 last week. He said the new boss was giving them the hand a lot, so he was going to use the smaller instrument, which actually had more punch.

When I had a 188, I found that it worked great in the community orchestra I was playing with. Great projection, and plenty of sound to balance the trombone section. No need to push the tuba past it's limits. I thought it sounded great, and the trombone and horn sections agreed.

In bands... It felt like I was too often pushing it too hard. My analogy has always been that most cars can go 80 mph... But is that pushing a top speed and you can just barely get to 80 mph? Or is 80 mph something you easily hit and surpass as you go well past 100? It makes a huge difference if you intend to stay at 80 mph for a length of time.

Clearly though, I'm a crap player, and like to buy and sell stuff. Other, better players can probably make the same equipment work much better for them.

happyroman wrote:Mr. Baer posted on his Facebook page that he was going to use the Ursus for Mahler 5 last week. He said the new boss was giving them the hand a lot, so he was going to use the smaller instrument, which actually had more punch.

The Ursus that I tried was certainly a physically smaller tuba than the Baer, but with a massive sound. Exceptionally easy to play and sound big. Smaller than the 6/4? Absolutely. Small? Not at all. I didn't love the sound that I made on it, but it was a very fine tuba!

toobagrowl wrote:
^This is something I have noticed from the 6/4 York-o-phone tuba sound in orchestras. Usually, lots of "fluff" in the sound, the sound is too wide and diffuse, and lacks clarity and 'bite', and actually doesn't project as well as many 5/4 and 4/4 tubas. And with the uber-round/uber-'dark' modern tuba sound one often hears; that big 6/4 tuba sounds WOOFY in an orchestra. The 6/4 tuba sound, IMO, actually works better in a large band setting since the tubas ARE the "basses"

Could part of the preference toward 6/4 York-alikes be due to what the tubist is hearing out of the bell? Something that sounds “fluffy” out front could easily be heard as “round”, “dark”, “fundamental” from the back.

I know that I at least, and this is partly due to taste as well, have found that if I get too distracted by listening to myself in the back of the orchestra I tend to prefer that über dark sound as it sits nicely under the trombones. However, when I listen to the recording it almost always comes across as too dark. When I switched to 186, I didn’t care so much for the sound as I initially heard it but I much preferred the recording with that tuba.

bloke wrote:First of all,
Tuba players (themselves - not-so-much and almost-never music directors or patrons) LOVE 6/4 tubas.

TRUTH!!!

I recently sold my 188, however had I been in the position to I would have kept it. For me I just wanted something different and the three horns I had to choose between were my MrP (which I have grown so fond of), an Ursus (which would have required financing), and Bort’s 3050RZ (which I almost bought once before). Honestly I probably would be playing on the Wilson, if I hadn’t bid on the MrP yet, because I only know of a handful of the rotary ones and they are fantastic.
I’ve only ever liked two 6/4 horns I’ve ever played one was a Holton and a Conn Grand Orchestral with a 2165 bell. Both were very rich in sound and really filled out the band I played in. However, I borrowed the Holton for a gig with a local orchestra and hated the way it sounded in the ensemble. I thought it sounded too woofy and didn’t bridge the gap between the basses and brass well. I brought my 188 to the next rehearsal and that was a game changer. The 188 is truly the do it all horn, and I was lucky enough to have a handmade model, which I verified with Google Translate and a rep from Miraphone. Do I miss it? Yes and no. Yes because I played on it for eight years, but no because I know it’s still getting played (even if it is with a rock group in the Dallas area).

Not sure I realized yours was a handmade 188, but even before knowing that it seemed like a great tuba. I can easily picture myself getting another 188 at some point -- I just can't decide if I want that to be sooner or later.

Joe is right, as a tuba player, I love playing a big tuba -- it's fun. But realistically, 188 is a good size, point and shoot, and about the easiest to hold tuba that I have ever found. Not the most perfect tuba at everything, but overall a great compromise. Is it possible that other tubas are better? Of course. But at what point do I stop chasing that idea, and just happily accept the 188 and move on? I'll probably still wish it was a little bigger, but maybe mouthpiece selection can help me out with that. Or possibly the memory of 5+ years of constant tuba buying/selling will help me to just get over it!

Question -- I've always heard that Miraphone is receptive to custom orders, with the mindset of "if you pay for it, we will build it." Could they build a NEW tuba with the sheet-metal bows?

If I did go back to a 188, I'm considering buying a new one (most modern version of everything, no inherited problems, etc). Might also encourage me to stay with it long-term, too! My only concern is that the new 188s might not have quite the same "zip" or "magic" that the old ones had (like my former 188).

TLDR; hooray 188!

I believe we've discussed this before: something along the lines of looking at a majority of the tuba players that played during the middle-late 20th century and you'll find most playing horns like Alex, a few Cervenys, Miraphone on the West-Coast, and some 'big' King tubas. Nothing near the size of the 6/4 York in Chicago. Mr. Jacobs was a great player and his pedagogy will always be a part of history. However, maybe the whole 'playing on a 6/4 thing' may not. If the premier tuba positions in the world are seeing a reduction in size, even with the advent of even more 6/4 York copies coming out, is it possible we're not seeing a resurgence or renaissance, but rather seeing it's twilight?

bort wrote: Question -- I've always heard that Miraphone is receptive to custom orders, with the mindset of "if you pay for it, we will build it." Could they build a NEW tuba with the sheet-metal bows?

You could buy something like a new Alex 163 with less effort (and money) I guess... but I do think that Miraphone would build your tuba to special order as well, some of the sponsors could answer that for you.

I agree with the idea that a 5/4 tuba can do 90% of the tuba-job better than a 6/4.
Knowing that this thread is basically about a CC tuba, I'm still convinced that a Rudi 4/4 BBb or Alex 163 BBb (with 5 valves, thank you) would perform at least equal if not better for that 90%.
Having an extra 6/4 (BBb kaiser?) for those last 10% would be very nice to have off course, but not as your main horn.
Just my 0,02 EUR