TubeNet

the latest version of Finale DOES NOT support scanning. I think the new owners of Finale are also in the publishing business and don't want to address scanning as a form of copying.

One step forward, two steps back . . .

GC wrote: I've been told that it's possible to scan in a treble clef tuba part and have the program change it to bass clef with just a few clicks. I haven't done this myself, FWIW.

The problem is not clef change, or instrument change, or key change. It's getting an accurate scan to begin with. I do a lot of this type of work and I haven't found any method of scanning that is worth the time to correct all the mistakes that are introduced.

I am currently keying in the entire 3rd movement of Bruckner's 4th Symphony. Believe me, if I could simply scan it, I would. Practical notation scanning software is coming, and maybe soon, but for the time-being, we are still stuck keying in note-by-note.

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote:

GC wrote: I've been told that it's possible to scan in a treble clef tuba part and have the program change it to bass clef with just a few clicks. I haven't done this myself, FWIW.

The problem is not clef change, or instrument change, or key change. It's getting an accurate scan to begin with. I do a lot of this type of work and I haven't found any method of scanning that is worth the time to correct all the mistakes that are introduced.

I am currently keying in the entire 3rd movement of Bruckner's 4th Symphony. Believe me, if I could simply scan it, I would. Practical notation scanning software is coming, and maybe soon, but for the time-being, we are still stuck keying in note-by-note.

Hup

The use of a good Epson flat-bed helps with scanning accuracy but I've only had a few scans without errors. Some stuff is written in an open key signature and that REALLY screws with Finale!

Tampaworth wrote:I know it would eliminate the headache for otherwise accomplished players not as nimble (or who would just like to relax more) in the brain, but more and more unaccomplished players would then join the ranks of Brass Band players, maybe detracting from the art form here in the US. I see it as a rite of passage. You want to play Brass Band rep, you've got to belly up to the bar to take on the TC headache and or challenge.

That's like saying the fence should be 400 feet for Little League games or else it will detract from the Pro game to have so many unaccomplished players not hitting it over the fence. Most Little League players never make it to the pros but they do stay life long fans and fill the stadiums. Right now Brass Bands in the US are not on the radar of anybody and the concerts are sparsely attended. This will remain so if we keep the barriers to entry high and create little interest even among the many amatuers that you call unaccomplished. If we can't even attract folks who might have a natural affinity for the music how in the heck will we ever get butts in the auditorium seats to hear all the "accomplished players". Yes - by all means lets keep it elitist with a tiny microscopic following.

AndyCat wrote:Contact the publishers? I'm pretty sure no one has ever asked them. So go ahead, they won't do anything unless they're asked!

A smart business goes and finds new markets and works to expand it's existing markets. If you wait for the customer to find you then you are a business in a death spiral. I realize most publishers are small, but this is a simple change and since they ought to be publishing on demand it would seem a low cost thing to do withour tying up capital. WIth the advent of technology - sending a sample piece via pdf to all the Middle Schools/HS/Colleges/Community Bands etc would be nearly free / easy marketing. Perhaps creating a whole new group of buyers for their Brass Band Offerings.

Dan Schultz wrote: ..........but I've only had a few scans without errors. Some stuff is written in an open key signature and that REALLY screws with Finale!

100% clean scans would usually only be the ones already printed out from sibelius or finale.
Some times I fix the errors, some times I ask them to do it themselves, comparing with the original.
And somtimes it's just not possible to get a scan to work with.

tofu wrote:
A smart business goes and finds new markets and works to expand it's existing markets. If you wait for the customer to find you then you are a business in a death spiral. I realize most publishers are small, but this is a simple change and since they ought to be publishing on demand it would seem a low cost thing to do withour tying up capital. WIth the advent of technology - sending a sample piece via pdf to all the Middle Schools/HS/Colleges/Community Bands etc would be nearly free / easy marketing. Perhaps creating a whole new group of buyers for their Brass Band Offerings.

I volunteer you to do this, since it is, as you say, "simple," "low cost," "nearly free," "easy marketing," and you will be "crating a whole new group of buyers." You have the added advantage of no competition since no other brass band publisher is a "smart business."

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote:

tofu wrote:
A smart business goes and finds new markets and works to expand it's existing markets. If you wait for the customer to find you then you are a business in a death spiral. I realize most publishers are small, but this is a simple change and since they ought to be publishing on demand it would seem a low cost thing to do withour tying up capital. WIth the advent of technology - sending a sample piece via pdf to all the Middle Schools/HS/Colleges/Community Bands etc would be nearly free / easy marketing. Perhaps creating a whole new group of buyers for their Brass Band Offerings.

I volunteer you to do this, since it is, as you say, "simple," "low cost," "nearly free," "easy marketing," and you will be "crating a whole new group of buyers." You have the added advantage of no competition since no other brass band publisher is a "smart business."

Hup

Volunteer yourself. It was already pointed out that it wouldn't take much for publishers to do this. I run a large business with no time for a small business startup and certainly don't have the preexisting music literature library that would be the natural extension for a preexisting publisher of this music. They are in a declining business with limited prospects - to not do a natural brand extension with limited risk for them based on tradition BS is to stay within the box.

tofu wrote:
Volunteer yourself. It was already pointed out that it wouldn't take much for publishers to do this. I run a large business with no time for a small business startup and certainly don't have the preexisting music literature library that would be the natural extension for a preexisting publisher of this music. They are in a declining business with limited prospects - to not do a natural brand extension with limited risk for them based on tradition BS is to stay within the box.

Have you actually spoken with any publishers of brass band music? You have written about their business in a authoritative manner but your suggestions don't square with what I have heard from them.

How about calling up a publisher of brass band music and listening to what they have to say? You may find that they understand their own business model much better than you give them credit for.

Underlying this issue is the fact that brass band music is for people who are passionate about brass band music; it is not mainstream. You are not going to get people into this by handing them music written in bass clef (this in my own opinion, not something that was said to me by a publisher). Someone hears a brass band concert, it grabs them, and they make a commitment. If you have a trumpet, you buy a cornet. If you're a horn player you get a tenor horn. Maybe you need to get a baritone, or Eb tuba, or Eb soprano cornet. These are all bigger obstacles than learning to play treble clef.

This reminds me of an on-going complaint in the trumpet world: why doesn't someone(else) transpose all the trumpet parts for me? It gets no sympathy from serious players. And it takes more time to learn to transpose from a half dozen keys than to learn one clef. If you are serious about symphonic music you do it.

Hup

Sorry to drag this out, but the idea of creating duplicate bass clef parts sounds worse and worse as I think about it.

Is there any band in America (or elsewhere) than has a librarian who is not over-worked? Here's a great idea to make their job just a little bit harder: Extra parts, not currently needed, will be necessary for certain people. Also, when there is a sub, should it be in bass clef or treble? Do I keep both parts in each folder? When I inventory, which parts have duplicate bass and treble clef parts, and which do not? How about during transition: because not all parts will instantly be in bass clef, what do we do about parts which are currently not in bass clef for the players who can't read them?

Of course, for some people all these headaches are issues for the other guy.

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote:Sorry to drag this out, but the idea of creating duplicate bass clef parts sounds worse and worse as I think about it.

Is there any band in America (or elsewhere) than has a librarian who is not over-worked? Here's a great idea to make their job just a little bit harder: Extra parts, not currently needed, will be necessary for certain people. Also, when there is a sub, should it be in bass clef or treble? Do I keep both parts in each folder? When I inventory, which parts have duplicate bass and treble clef parts, and which do not? How about during transition: because not all parts will instantly be in bass clef, what do we do about parts which are currently not in bass clef for the players who can't read them?

Of course, for some people all these headaches are issues for the other guy.

Hup

I respect your opinion and certainly didn't intend for this discussion to get into a 'shin-kicking' contest. I founded and run a very successful community band that consists of MANY folks who might not otherwise be playing music at all at this point in their life. The group is open to all wind and percussion players without regard to their experience. I do EVERYTHING I can to make EVERYONE feel welcome and ALWAYS make it a point to help folks stay involved whenever I can. If that means providing large print or transpositions... I do it.

One of the band directors on the Yahoo Community Music Forums sums things up when he signs off with "music is far too important to be left entirely in the hands of professionals".

I feel the same way about music as I do about nature. There are actually some educators who think the Federal Parks should be accessed only by scientists.

tofu wrote:...If we can't even attract folks who might have a natural affinity for the music how in the heck will we ever get butts in the auditorium seats to hear all the "accomplished players". Yes - by all means lets keep it elitist with a tiny microscopic following.

Snobbery rears its ugly head, yet again!!

Dan Schultz wrote:I founded and run a very successful community band

... where you use British Brass Band arrangements? Just curious, does this mean you have more or less the ordinary BBB instrumentation, or are there the usual woodwinds, trumpets, reduced complement of percussions, etc.?

Donn wrote:

Dan Schultz wrote:I founded and run a very successful community band

... where you use British Brass Band arrangements? Just curious, does this mean you have more or less the ordinary BBB instrumentation, or are there the usual woodwinds, trumpets, reduced complement of percussions, etc.?

No. I don't make any attempt to integrate traditional brass band music with a symphonic-style concert band. I play with several groups ranging from simple five-piece 'oom-pah' charts to high-end brass band repertoire.

I founded the community band in 2000. ... after I was already playing with a couple of other concert bands and didn't start playing with the brass band until several years later.

...brass band music is for people who are passionate about brass band music; it is not mainstream. You are not going to get people into this by handing them music written in bass clef...
...reminds me of an on-going complaint in the trumpet world: why doesn't someone(else) transpose all the trumpet parts for me? It gets no sympathy from serious players.

Seems we have quite a divide between folks (like Dan) who would like as many as possible to experience BBB music, and others who want to keep the riff-raff out, and reserve it for serious players. But, wasn't the origin of this music in mining communities, etc., as a social activity, practiced by amateurs? And aren't all the parts in Treble Clef to make it easier for players to switch instruments, and never have to learn bass clef?
And, sure, if you're a serious orchestral trumpet player, you need to be able to transpose. If you're an amateur, playing in a community band, not so much.

EVERYTHING I have seen is in TC. Over time, my guys have just gotten into learning how to read it. The E-flat part is pretty easy, but playing BBb on CC is a bit of a challenge. I'm TOLD, the way to do it is: make like you are reading bass clef and use F tuba fingerings, making adjustments for accidentals. Never tried it myself....

tclements wrote:EVERYTHING I have seen is in TC. Over time, my guys have just gotten into learning how to read it. The E-flat part is pretty easy, but playing BBb on CC is a bit of a challenge. I'm TOLD, the way to do it is: make like you are reading bass clef and use F tuba fingerings, making adjustments for accidentals. Never tried it myself....

That trick with playing a CC on the BBb part with F tuba fingerings works just fine. It gives our one player with perfect pitch trouble. I tell him to think the part is in tenor clef down an octave. He's not convinced but I don't have much of a problem doing it.

Of no help at all, but I learnt in brass bands and treble clef, so had to learn bass clef later on. Basically I transpose on the hoof, but the other way to you lot.

The point about publishers is fair on both sides. New works, yes perhaps offer bass clef. But over 100 bands bought a test piece for this years competitions (Pageantry, Herbert Howells, 1930's) that was a copy of the original parts from back then. Never been anywhere near a computer, and never will. I'd say the majority of the brass Band rep is still of this ilk.

Dan Schultz wrote: No problem. Yes... the treble clef thing IS just a matter if tradition and really needs to change if brass banding is expected to grow in the USA. Either that or drop teaching bass clef to beginning band students.

.. agree that publishers in modern times should offer multiple clef versions as a standard package, but then ..

I think the real problem in brass teaching is that clef skills are regarded 'very advanced' and only suited to the proficient student. Nothing could be more wrong ...

If students where teached to transpose simple melodies on the fly, and where teached to think in what tone comes out of the horn, not what scribble on the paper warrants which finger action, the problem would be gone once and for all.

I have seen 11 year old kids reading french horn stuff in F treble clef and normal C bass clef without effort (playing a trombone part on a french horn). It took only 2 weeks practice to learn ... just saying ... if french horn kids can do it, all other brass can as well

marccromme wrote: I have seen 11 year old kids reading french horn stuff in F treble clef and normal C bass clef without effort (playing a trombone part on a french horn). It took only 2 weeks practice to learn ... just saying ... if french horn kids can do it, all other brass can as well

Oh, sure, but their brains have not been effected by decades of use and "environmental" damage!!