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Hello all!

Like the subject line says, I recently bought a nice, new, compensating 3+1 EEb tuba and I now need some help! The horn is a John Packer Sterling EEb tuba (model JP377), and there are many things I like about it. The build quality looks to be high (we have a first-rate brass tech guy here in B'ham who liked it), the horn's ergonomics are good for me, and the horn sounds great until I use that 4th valve, and that's my problem! So what's with that? How do I think about using the 4th valve? I guess I'm just not approaching the thing correctly. Right now, anything and everything I play with the 4th valve engaged sounds really crappy.

TIA for any help you can provide to me!

-Martin.

Three things to fix your horn

1) get some lessons off a good tuba teacher.

2) if your tuba teacher says the horn is weird take it to the great tech you know.

3) Ask the internet only as your last resort! How can we fix you or your horn?

Ideas....

1. There could be a problem with the 4th valve wrap. Try 1-3 to see if it feels different.
2. Many tubas have a pretty good resonance on the "fractitional tone" a perfect 5th below the tonic. On your tuba that's low Ab. Try practicing the low Ab open for a while and see if you can get it to sound like something resembling good tone. Then try it with the proper fingering, 1-4, to see if that helps you center things in. I do this on bass trombone. I practice a bunch of "fake" low Bs, then when I use the proper fingering, it roars out of the horn. It's like weighting your baseball bat for practice.
3. Have a friend play it too.
4. Practice your scales up from the bottom of the horn's range into the middle, then back down to the bottom. You play a bunch more low notes in the same time (twice as many) than if you begin all your scales in the middle of the instrument and go down and back up.
5. Whatever you don't do very well, practice that a lot. -Dr. Terry S. Cravens

-F

Bloke's comment reminded me that indeed the compensating side of a compensating tuba has much more resistance. Fourth valve down means you're blowing through 7 valves minimum: 1-2-3-4-1-2-3. That's different than a non-comp tuba where the 4th valve down means still blowing only through 4 valves. Or something like that...

-F
/ya gotta huff and puff
//when I play low on an Eb tuba, I feel like I have to spit through it more than on a CC where I breathe through it...

Ferguson wrote: 1. There could be a problem with the 4th valve wrap. Try 1-3 to see if it feels different.

As Bloke points out, the compensating loop (4th valve) bore is larger than the 1-3 bores. Even so, the sound and feel should be at least similar, not different enough to make the 4th valve note sound crappy. I have two compensating tubas with larger bores on the compensating loop; on both, the 4 vs. 1-3 sound and feel is subtle at most.

Yes, things begin to change as you add valve combinations on top of the 4th valve.

Ferguson wrote:Fourth valve down means you're blowing through 7 valves minimum: 1-2-3-4-1-2-3. That's different than a non-comp tuba where the 4th valve down means still blowing only through 4 valves.

Good point, except it's actually 8 valves: 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4. If you have all the valves down you are blowing through 14 valves: 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-1-1-2-2-3-3-4. The effect of this is anything but subtle, but still playable.

Hup

If the tuba sounds well when played with the first 3 valves only, then that does NOT point towards an alignment problem with the ports of the 4th, compensating, loop. If that were the case, then there would be no solution to the OP’s problem. Because aligning the comp ports then would misalign the ports of the 3 first valve loops.

Rather than a player problem I would look for two other matters first:

an ever so tiny leak in the 4th loop

and/or

left over production residues of whatever nature - a big solder glop or dust collected around some sort of fabric.

Does the tuba sound badly when only the 4th valve is pressed? If so you may get lucky by the easy process of flushing out just the slide of the 4th loop. The leak or blockage could be whereever in the 4th loop though.

Klaus

Thank you ALL for your insights and suggestions. You've all given me ideas to consider, and I'll work on all of them and then get back to you with what I find out. Fyi, when I'm playing with 3 valves, the horn sounds great -- notes center very nicely, in tune, with good resonance. I like the sounds I make, and other, knowledgeable people do as well. To me, right now, most anything I do with the 4th valve sounds bad, and the horn blows very differently. Please remember that I'm somewhat new to EEb, only having picked it up earlier this year when I bought an old Besson 3-valve 'New Standard' off eBay. I'll certainly check-out any possible mechanical issues that Joe and Klaus mentioned, and I'll do some serious practicing which Steve suggested.

Thanks again for your help.

-Martin.

Just looked up the JP377, which has a feature, that my own British made Besson 981 from 1999 does not have, and which may be the key to the problem:

A water key sitting on the 4th loop slide.

The problem may be as simple as the cork (or cork substitute) not seating tightly on the nipple. At least with proper cork it might be wothwhile to wet the cork and press it hard against the nipple to take the proper shape. If the spring isn’t strong enough, a repairman will know how to tighten it.

Myself, I haven’t been above using elastic force for a tighter fit. Plain rubber bands may noy be kind on metal or lacquer. I prefer the elastic bands of various widths that good housewives used for repairs of family clothing. I think they still are available on the market.

Klaus

I would say a guy with a new horn is only a few months away from learning it. I got one in April, and lately it has been working really well for me. The first month, not so much! What changed? My ability to "know" it.

After you "knew" it enough times, what changed?

When I was 19 I bought a Besson 981 without having played Eb before. I thought about it before buying and determined in my mind that, having been a BBb player, all I'd have to do is hold the 4th valve down all the time and I'd have a BBb tuba. Yeah, that didn't work well because of the same problems you are experiencing. The 4th valve side of the horn is designed specifically for low range, and like others have said there is resistance.

Thank you, Gus. Like I mentioned in my reply, above, I'll check-out any possible mechanical issues with my horn, but I suspect my problem will turn out to be what you, Steve, and others are suggesting. So, is there any trick to dealing with the resistance? Use lots and lots of air? Use not-so-much air? Whenever I use the 4th valve, I want to really 'back-off' the mouthpiece to get a good sounding note out. Right now, I'm having a really hard time getting notes to center properly. Sorry, I don't think I'm saying this well, but maybe you know what I mean. FWIW, I prefer large mouthpieces regardless of what horn I'm playing (usually big BBb horns), and I'm presently using a Denis Wick 1L on the EEb.

Thank you, Joe. I really am trying to figure out 'what the horn needs' and that's a good way of putting it. So far, what I've tried isn't working. Re: possible mechanical issues, I'll have some time this afternoon to take a look at the spit valve, and next week I should have the ball bearings so that I can check for any blockages to the compensating loop.

Thanks again, Joe, for the kind offer. Were it not 3 hours away I'd head-up today! Let me putz around with things today and find-out whatever I will, but I might very well take you up on the offer sometime Real Soon! When it comes to tuba playing, and most other things come to think about it, I can learn things pretty well, but I'm not at all quick about it.

THE WHOLE POINT of buying new is that you can return it if it isn't good. Hopefully you at least tried one at a booth somewhere before buying? Even if not it is your right to return for any or no reason.