What is the 3450 really?

The bulk of the musical talk
Post Reply
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

What is the 3450 really?

Post by joh_tuba »

We all know that the MW/B&S/VMI borg has a penchant for mixing and matching parts to make 'new and improved' designs.

Any hair brained theories as to what the 3450 *really* is?

My theory: PT3P with the fifth valve moved to after the main slide and tweaks to the taper to 'fix' the intonation. <-- I can't comment on their level of success.. this is not an endorsement of either horn.
Ken Herrick
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:03 pm
Location: The Darling Desert in The Land of Oz

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by Ken Herrick »

If it's "hair brained theories" you want.........do you think this is really the place to seek them?
Free to tuba: good home
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by bort »

First draft of the Ursus?
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by joh_tuba »

Well... sure...

But the HOJO 2011 front action BBb looks an awful lot like the body of the VMI/B&S3301/PT2P with a 17mm valveset and a super long leadpipe and main tuning slide *before* the valves. The VMI3301/PT2P body in BBb is almost certainly the same parts as the PT3/4 cut to CC.

I'm dubious that they've created any new mandrels for any of the newer horns. My memory only goes back to the 90s but I feel like I recall the PT3 being a 'Perantouched' larger valve set version of a 17-21mm horn that B&S already made long before that AND that horn was an amalgamation of the B&S F tuba bell and bottom bow with the 'Symphonie' valve section mushed into CC.

Also noteworthy that the PT3 and PT4 are no longer listed on the B&S website. I think they've worked out how to sell us nearly the same horn without us realizing it.

Feel free to correct my questionable memory and leaps of logic.
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by joh_tuba »

According to Matt Walters in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987

3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.

Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by bort »

joh_tuba wrote:According to Matt Walters in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987

3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.

Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
To me, the 3225 seemed bigger than the 3450 in every way, except for height. Very different.
ckalaher1
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:35 am

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by ckalaher1 »

I would agree that the 3225 is simply bigger than the 3450.

The 3450 felt a click bigger than something like a Getzen model 50, but not much bigger than that. The 3225 felt a little bit in between a 2145 and 2155. I didn't take any measurements or anything, just basing my comments on how the instruments "felt".

I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
johnhadden
bugler
bugler
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Fl

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by johnhadden »

ckalaher1 wrote:
I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
This was my impression when I played it for the first time recently. I've played a handful of smaller CCs over the years and I have no doubt that if I had the need and the cash I would have my main bigger CC and then a 3450 on hand for some fun quintet playing or even to use in place of an FF on solo work.
John Hadden
Brass Development Coordinator, Buffet Crampon USA
(904) 412-3682
john.hadden@buffetcrampon.com" target="_blank
User avatar
MikeMilnarik
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA / Lancaster, PA
Contact:

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by MikeMilnarik »

Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!

Mike Milnarik
http://www.milnarik.com

INNOVATA
COSMOPOLITAN TUBA QUARTET
MMI - TUBA EUPHONIUM ACADEMY
TUBASTUDIO.com

Tufts University & Milnarik Music Initiative
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by joh_tuba »

MikeMilnarik wrote:Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!
There are obvious differences from the Rudy 4345(which is purported to by a copy of an old Conn) but they are certainly in the same 'family' of design.

http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4596
ScottM
bugler
bugler
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 pm
Location: I'd prefer a trout stream

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by ScottM »

I don't know what it is but do note that ergonomically it was the best fit compared to my 184 or the Getzen CB50.
I am shorter than average and it was nice to play a horn my size.
I thought it played well and intonation was good when I played it at ITEC.
ScottM
pecktime
bugler
bugler
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:54 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by pecktime »

I own a 3450 and a 2011TA ‘HoJo’. They play and sound very different to my ears despite having the same 17 inch bell.

The 3450 has a fluffier broader sound. It is very friendly to play. The low register is open (ie takes a bit more air). It feels more amenable to orchestral literature. It can do slurs and diminuendos and stuff. (I’m not a legit guy).

The hojo needs more finesse to play. Going below the stave is harder. Perhaps because of the skinnier valves and tubing?
The HoJo has a really nice front to the note, sort of ‘bouncy’ like a motown electric bass. It’s a light tuba too, great for strolling and jazz gigs where you don’t need a 20j or the like.the valves are fast and i prefer the top pistons. I don’t know about tuning.
MW 3450, 2011TA HoJo, Conn 20J
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by joh_tuba »

I finally had a chance recently to closely examine a 3450.

It's a smaller horn than a PT3 with probably no parts in common. The bugle is much more similar to a Conn 3J with similarly point and shoot intonation.
Lee Stofer
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:50 am

Re: What is the 3450 really?

Post by Lee Stofer »

I had a Meinl-Weston 3450 in my shop this year. It had sustained damage, so I had to spend a lot of time getting the 3rd and 4th valves, and 4th and 5th valve tubing
repaired, and tension-free. Although I saw no leadpipe damage at all, I used a mouthpipe cable and dent balls to bring the leadpipe into round. I have been suprised by how many fairly-recent M-W's come to me with not-round leadpipes. This makes a tremendous difference in playability. Once finished, I took it out and played it for several weeks. My impression is that the instrument plays very well in tune, has a quick and lively response, has a nice tone and resonance, but for me it will edge-out when really pushed, volume-wise. During the summer I also did a bit of playing on a Rudi 3/4 CC, and these two horns are completely different. The Rudi has a darker sound, and can be pushed volume-wise to sound like a much larger instrument. The 3450 is a light & bright sound, probably just the thing they were trying to create for Jon Sass. I would use it for quintet, solo, or small ensemble in a heartbeat, but not so much for a large ensemble.
Lee A. Stofer, Jr.
Post Reply