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What is the 3450 really?

Postby joh_tuba » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:52 pm

We all know that the MW/B&S/VMI borg has a penchant for mixing and matching parts to make 'new and improved' designs.

Any hair brained theories as to what the 3450 *really* is?

My theory: PT3P with the fifth valve moved to after the main slide and tweaks to the taper to 'fix' the intonation. <-- I can't comment on their level of success.. this is not an endorsement of either horn.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby Ken Herrick » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm

If it's "hair brained theories" you want.........do you think this is really the place to seek them?
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby bloke » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:58 pm

Howard Johnson model cut to C w/boilerplate valveset...??
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby bort » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:28 pm

First draft of the Ursus?
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby joh_tuba » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:29 pm

Well... sure...

But the HOJO 2011 front action BBb looks an awful lot like the body of the VMI/B&S3301/PT2P with a 17mm valveset and a super long leadpipe and main tuning slide *before* the valves. The VMI3301/PT2P body in BBb is almost certainly the same parts as the PT3/4 cut to CC.

I'm dubious that they've created any new mandrels for any of the newer horns. My memory only goes back to the 90s but I feel like I recall the PT3 being a 'Perantouched' larger valve set version of a 17-21mm horn that B&S already made long before that AND that horn was an amalgamation of the B&S F tuba bell and bottom bow with the 'Symphonie' valve section mushed into CC.

Also noteworthy that the PT3 and PT4 are no longer listed on the B&S website. I think they've worked out how to sell us nearly the same horn without us realizing it.

Feel free to correct my questionable memory and leaps of logic.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby bloke » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:13 pm

joh_tuba wrote:Well... sure...

But the HOJO 2011 front action BBb looks an awful lot like the body of the VMI/B&S3301/PT2P with a 17mm valveset and a super long leadpipe and main tuning slide *before* the valves. The VMI3301/PT2P body in BBb is almost certainly the same parts as the PT3/4 cut to CC.

I'm dubious that they've created any new mandrels for any of the newer horns. My memory only goes back to the 90s but I feel like I recall the PT3 being a 'Perantouched' larger valve set version of a 17-21mm horn that B&S already made long before that AND that horn was an amalgamation of the B&S F tuba bell and bottom bow with the 'Symphonie' valve section mushed into CC.

Also noteworthy that the PT3 and PT4 are no longer listed on the B&S website. I think they've worked out how to sell us nearly the same horn without us realizing it.

Feel free to correct my questionable memory and leaps of logic.


Yep...correct.
There was a piggy-style B&S-made "Symphonie" C tuba with the same 5 bore sizes (17 - 21 mm) as the "Symphonie" F tuba.
It as hand-made (sheet brass), rotary, and offered so-so (manageable, but not amazing - and yes, just like the PT-3 & 4) intonation. I've sold a couple of them (used, obviously) over the years.

My understanding is that M-W made the bells for the original Mahillon (Belgium) BBb tubas (the model that Howard Johnson used)...[Can anyone verify or refute this?] The Mahillon (original) featured a 16mm bore...Either HJ wanted to try a slightly larger bore, or M-W didn't have the courage to market/mass-produce a 4/4 tuba with a bore size that small.

I'm not going to pretend to be able to evaluate tubas for Mr. B's use or for "mass appeal". but - for my money - I believe if M-W (B&S) had (simply) put a more conservative mouthpipe tube on the 2000/2155 tuba (same basic instrument), it would be superior (intonation and resonance) to the M-W model 3225 tuba. Having put 45SL-P 'pipes on a couple of those tubas, I would rate those altered (model 2000-style) 2155 tubas as "legendary" large 4/4 C tubas.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby Casca Grossa » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:32 pm

Tuba shaped object
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Why have 3 valves when you can have 6 and a main tuning slide kicker???
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby joh_tuba » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:38 pm

According to Matt Walters in this thread: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987

3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.

Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby bort » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:52 pm

joh_tuba wrote:According to Matt Walters in this thread: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987

3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.

Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?


To me, the 3225 seemed bigger than the 3450 in every way, except for height. Very different.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby ckalaher1 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:38 am

I would agree that the 3225 is simply bigger than the 3450.

The 3450 felt a click bigger than something like a Getzen model 50, but not much bigger than that. The 3225 felt a little bit in between a 2145 and 2155. I didn't take any measurements or anything, just basing my comments on how the instruments "felt".

I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby johnhadden » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:41 am

ckalaher1 wrote:
I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.


This was my impression when I played it for the first time recently. I've played a handful of smaller CCs over the years and I have no doubt that if I had the need and the cash I would have my main bigger CC and then a 3450 on hand for some fun quintet playing or even to use in place of an FF on solo work.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:36 am

I have never played any of these horns. I have never heard of most of them. Just putting that out there...
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby MikeMilnarik » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:35 am

Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!

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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby joh_tuba » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:54 pm

MikeMilnarik wrote:Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!


There are obvious differences from the Rudy 4345(which is purported to by a copy of an old Conn) but they are certainly in the same 'family' of design.

http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4596
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby ScottM » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:39 am

I don't know what it is but do note that ergonomically it was the best fit compared to my 184 or the Getzen CB50.
I am shorter than average and it was nice to play a horn my size.
I thought it played well and intonation was good when I played it at ITEC.
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Re: What is the 3450 really?

Postby pecktime » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:40 pm

I own a 3450 and a 2011TA ‘HoJo’. They play and sound very different to my ears despite having the same 17 inch bell.

The 3450 has a fluffier broader sound. It is very friendly to play. The low register is open (ie takes a bit more air). It feels more amenable to orchestral literature. It can do slurs and diminuendos and stuff. (I’m not a legit guy).

The hojo needs more finesse to play. Going below the stave is harder. Perhaps because of the skinnier valves and tubing?
The HoJo has a really nice front to the note, sort of ‘bouncy’ like a motown electric bass. It’s a light tuba too, great for strolling and jazz gigs where you don’t need a 20j or the like.the valves are fast and i prefer the top pistons. I don’t know about tuning.
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