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FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:26 am

NOTE: Below, I will post as few words as possible, will avoid mechanics and wordiness. This is for tuba-playing band directors who have not-much experience with euphoniums, and are trying to decide whether to purchase 4-valve "compensating" or 4-valve "NON-compensating" instruments.
=============================================================

NON-compensating 4-valve euphoniums:
assist in playing second-space C/B-natural and bottom-of-staff F/E-natural better in tune (flatter). They are not of very much benefit (over 3-valve instruments) in the extended low range (below the bottom-of-staff E).

COMPENSATING 4-valve euphoniums:
do what NON-compensating euphoniums do, but also offer a usable below-the-staff Eb, *D, Db, and C. There is a fingering (all valves depressed) for very low B-natural, but - often - that pitch is somewhat sharp, and requires "lipping".

The simple questions to ask yourself, perhaps, are only these two:
- Assuming "nice-playing instruments" as choices, how often am I going to pass out music that features pitches BELOW E-natural at the bottom of the bass clef staff to the euphonium players?
- How much more will a "compensating" 4-valve instrument cost me, vs. the cost of a "non-compensating" 4-valve instrument ?

bloke "over and out"

____________________________________________
*Serendipitously, the non-compensating 4-valve euphoniums ~also~ offer a usable-without-yanking-on-slides D below the staff - by depressing valves 2-3-4.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby BopEuph » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:45 am

I wouldn't say there's not much benefit for non-competing over 3 valves for the low range, though it's certainly not preferable. I have a student with a non compensating Besson, and I'm working her low range. She's doing fine, though having to finger a half step lower is definitely confusing her.

But I'd say that a middle school doesn't need a 4 valve horn, and a high school doesn't need a compensating horn. The hardest low range thing I did in high school was the Jacob Fantasia, and the low stuff was accessible for the 4v King I was on.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:47 am

Most here know this stuff, but (perhaps?) it's concise enough to copy/paste for band director friends who, perhaps, can identify a "compensating" instrument by appearance, but aren't certain what "compensating" does.
(maybe...?? if you do, mention that you're quoting "Mid-South Music, Inc." in Tennessee.)
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby BopEuph » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:02 am

Ah. Point well taken.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby kmorgancraw » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:22 am

Are 6/4 tubas considered compensating instruments?
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby windshieldbug » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:40 am

kmorgancraw wrote:Are 6/4 tubas considered compensating instruments?


Only in the way mid-life red Corvettes are... 8)
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby timothy42b » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:52 am

I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.

I haven't had enough experience to know if that's universally true. It has been true that the euphs I've played with solid false tones were noncompensating.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby BopEuph » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:11 am

timothy42b wrote:I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.


I had no clue euphoniums could play false tones at all! I tried them on my Willson when I first heard about them and couldn't get them, though they pop on trombone. I just thought euphoniums couldn't do it.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Eflatdoubler » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:24 am

I had tried a few Jupiter 3 +1 NON-compensating euphoniums that were terrific! E flat had to be lipped, otherwise low D, D flat and C were fine fingered down a half step. No low B, but others have mentioned- there really isn't a need.
I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:34 am

the elephant wrote:In the multiverse there is a TubeNet where we talk about how we greased our cat with toothpaste and hot sauce so it would fly better in the rain. Even then someone would ask whether the cat was lacquered or silver plated.


:roll:
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Three Valves » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:18 pm

bloke wrote:Most here know this stuff, but (perhaps?) it's concise enough to copy/paste for band director friends who, perhaps, can identify a "compensating" instrument by appearance, but aren't certain what "compensating" does.
(maybe...?? if you do, mention that you're quoting "Mid-South Music, Inc." in Tennessee.)


Hey Buddy!!

When I try to find JP retailers in the USA here;

http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/Fin ... ckist.html

I click on;

Mid South Music
14670 Highway 193
Williston, Tennessee 38076
Phone: +1901 465 4739
Email: midsouthmusic@aol.com
Website: www.mid-southmusic.com/

And wind up here...

https://www.mid-southmusic.com/about

That ain't you!! :shock:
Who needs four valves??

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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Sousaswag » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:25 pm

I've played both a Yamaha 321 non comp 4 valve and own a Besson 968 comp. Really the only thing the Yamaha has over its 3 valve counterpart is an in tune C. Compensating in a school environment can be a hit or miss. For instance, my school had no euphoniums for a few years, and when we did, there was no way the director would give the nice Besson non comp 3+1 horns to anyone but kids in the top group.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Three Valves wrote:
bloke wrote:Most here know this stuff, but (perhaps?) it's concise enough to copy/paste for band director friends who, perhaps, can identify a "compensating" instrument by appearance, but aren't certain what "compensating" does.
(maybe...?? if you do, mention that you're quoting "Mid-South Music, Inc." in Tennessee.)


Hey Buddy!!

When I try to find JP retailers in the USA here;

http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/Fin ... ckist.html" target="_blank

I click on;

Mid South Music
14670 Highway 193
Williston, Tennessee 38076
Phone: +1901 465 4739
Email: midsouthmusic@aol.com" target="_blank
Website: http://www.mid-southmusic.com/" target="_blank

And wind up here...

https://www.mid-southmusic.com/about" target="_blank

That ain't you!! :shock:


I own the domain name with NO HYPHEN. JP probably guessed. There are actually two or three companies named this (in different states).
I have finally found a guy who I "like" to build a website...and finally have a minute to lay out what I want done.
With any luck, it should be up by early 2018.
Here's the thing...
I do a whole bunch of different things (one being "playing the tuba for dough), and (ref: other pursuits) have an aversion to employees. We're selling quite a few JP instruments with no website. WITH one up, I can see toiling with orders/shipping/etc. every day. I don't have an aversion to mo' money, but I do have one towards "being stuck doing one thing all the time". Were that something I loved, I would have a "job".
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Three Valves » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:38 pm

Joke's on him then, it would be worse if you started getting calls from his viola players!!

:tuba:
Who needs four valves??

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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby timothy42b » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:00 pm

BopEuph wrote:
timothy42b wrote:I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.


I had no clue euphoniums could play false tones at all! I tried them on my Willson when I first heard about them and couldn't get them, though they pop on trombone. I just thought euphoniums couldn't do it.


Well, they can, but they don't feel like on trombone.

I can play the valve register as false tones on trombone but they feel strained and they take a lot of effort.

Not so on euph. They pop out and feel like real notes. Open is Eb below the staff and it goes down more or less chromatically like you'd expect. I don't understand this but it is there.

It is not true for all euphs, and I don't know why. But like I said, I've been told compensation seems to prevent it.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Mark Finley » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 pm

At least around here, high schools opt for professional line instruments not for the intonation of low C, but to give the best intonation and tone all over the horn. The yamaha 321 is a nice horn, but I don't know too many people that think it sounds as good as a willson or an Adams.
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:33 pm

It's a matter of trends (in regards to the type of resonance).

"Resonance type" is an extremely subtle thing - particularly with euphoniums (as all euphoniums - to those out in the seats LISTENING - sound just about the same).

I do a much as I possibly can to make my euphonium sound like a small TUBA, but that's because genres with which I use it. Still, others would say that my euphonium and my set-up "sounds like a euphonium".

I believe that a very large percentage of musicians confuse sound (five to seventy-five feet away from their instruments) with (internal) feel.

Your Texas phenomenon...??
I attribute that to the general "Texas attitude"...where (just as one example) high school football stadiums resemble those on major universities' campuses (etc., etc., etc...ad infinitum). "If something costs a lot of dough and is perceived as a half-a-pinch better, that's what we Texans need. After all, we're Texas...dammit..." :D :wink: :lol: (and - actually - I'm not joking...and - to be clear - I love this about Texas.)
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Peach » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:13 pm

Eflatdoubler wrote:I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.


Unless short stroke valves, why would non-comps have shorter stroke than Comps?
In my experience they are the same...
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby bloke » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:18 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
kmorgancraw wrote:Are 6/4 tubas considered compensating instruments?


Only in the way mid-life red Corvettes are... 8)


:tuba:
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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Postby Mark Finley » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:29 pm

Peach wrote:
Eflatdoubler wrote:I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.


Unless short stroke valves, why would non-comps have shorter stroke than Comps?
In my experience they are the same...



King horns have a shorter stroke than compensating euphoniums. Not sure why
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