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I wouldn't say there's not much benefit for non-competing over 3 valves for the low range, though it's certainly not preferable. I have a student with a non compensating Besson, and I'm working her low range. She's doing fine, though having to finger a half step lower is definitely confusing her.

But I'd say that a middle school doesn't need a 4 valve horn, and a high school doesn't need a compensating horn. The hardest low range thing I did in high school was the Jacob Fantasia, and the low stuff was accessible for the 4v King I was on.

Ah. Point well taken.

Are 6/4 tubas considered compensating instruments?

kmorgancraw wrote:Are 6/4 tubas considered compensating instruments?

Only in the way mid-life red Corvettes are...

I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.

I haven't had enough experience to know if that's universally true. It has been true that the euphs I've played with solid false tones were noncompensating.

timothy42b wrote:I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.

I had no clue euphoniums could play false tones at all! I tried them on my Willson when I first heard about them and couldn't get them, though they pop on trombone. I just thought euphoniums couldn't do it.

I had tried a few Jupiter 3 +1 NON-compensating euphoniums that were terrific! E flat had to be lipped, otherwise low D, D flat and C were fine fingered down a half step. No low B, but others have mentioned- there really isn't a need.
I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.

bloke wrote:Most here know this stuff, but (perhaps?) it's concise enough to copy/paste for band director friends who, perhaps, can identify a "compensating" instrument by appearance, but aren't certain what "compensating" does.
(maybe...?? if you do, mention that you're quoting "Mid-South Music, Inc." in Tennessee.)

Hey Buddy!!

When I try to find JP retailers in the USA here;

http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/Fin ... ckist.html" target="_blank

I click on;

Mid South Music
14670 Highway 193
Williston, Tennessee 38076
Phone: +1901 465 4739
Email: midsouthmusic@aol.com" target="_blank
Website: http://www.mid-southmusic.com/" target="_blank

And wind up here...

https://www.mid-southmusic.com/about" target="_blank

That ain't you!!

I've played both a Yamaha 321 non comp 4 valve and own a Besson 968 comp. Really the only thing the Yamaha has over its 3 valve counterpart is an in tune C. Compensating in a school environment can be a hit or miss. For instance, my school had no euphoniums for a few years, and when we did, there was no way the director would give the nice Besson non comp 3+1 horns to anyone but kids in the top group.

Joke's on him then, it would be worse if you started getting calls from his viola players!!

BopEuph wrote:

timothy42b wrote:I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.

I had no clue euphoniums could play false tones at all! I tried them on my Willson when I first heard about them and couldn't get them, though they pop on trombone. I just thought euphoniums couldn't do it.

Well, they can, but they don't feel like on trombone.

I can play the valve register as false tones on trombone but they feel strained and they take a lot of effort.

Not so on euph. They pop out and feel like real notes. Open is Eb below the staff and it goes down more or less chromatically like you'd expect. I don't understand this but it is there.

It is not true for all euphs, and I don't know why. But like I said, I've been told compensation seems to prevent it.

Eflatdoubler wrote: I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.

Unless short stroke valves, why would non-comps have shorter stroke than Comps?
In my experience they are the same...

1 fewer port per valve in the non-comps.

Mark Finley wrote:King horns have a shorter stroke than compensating euphoniums. Not sure why

The stroke is port size + space between ports, right? So one or both of those would have to account for it.

My guess is that we Yanks have all the patents on port size changes, which you'd need for ANY shorter strokes...

Mark Finley wrote:Yes but I'm not sure why King can make their valves with a shorter stroke but compensating euphoniums can't or don't

The Miraphone 5050 has a bit shorter action. I measured it at 3/4" (19.05mm) vs my Yamaha 641 which is 7/8" (22.225mm). That's 1/8" (3.175mm) shorter action. Not sure how the German engineers do that with a bore of .610" (15.494mm) through the main valve section of the M5050. I suspect it has to do with the bumps seen inside the ports of the pistons which allow a closer overlap of the tubing that connect the ports.

not a valve from M5050 - just image ref.