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Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:25 pm
by Sousaswag
I've played both a Yamaha 321 non comp 4 valve and own a Besson 968 comp. Really the only thing the Yamaha has over its 3 valve counterpart is an in tune C. Compensating in a school environment can be a hit or miss. For instance, my school had no euphoniums for a few years, and when we did, there was no way the director would give the nice Besson non comp 3+1 horns to anyone but kids in the top group.

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:38 pm
by Three Valves
Joke's on him then, it would be worse if you started getting calls from his viola players!!

:tuba:

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:00 pm
by timothy42b
BopEuph wrote:
timothy42b wrote:I have heard that compensating euphoniums lose that Eb low false tone series that some people find useful.
I had no clue euphoniums could play false tones at all! I tried them on my Willson when I first heard about them and couldn't get them, though they pop on trombone. I just thought euphoniums couldn't do it.
Well, they can, but they don't feel like on trombone.

I can play the valve register as false tones on trombone but they feel strained and they take a lot of effort.

Not so on euph. They pop out and feel like real notes. Open is Eb below the staff and it goes down more or less chromatically like you'd expect. I don't understand this but it is there.

It is not true for all euphs, and I don't know why. But like I said, I've been told compensation seems to prevent it.

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:13 pm
by Peach
Eflatdoubler wrote: I prefer the shorter valve stroke of the non compensating horns too.
Unless short stroke valves, why would non-comps have shorter stroke than Comps?
In my experience they are the same...

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:38 pm
by pwhitaker
1 fewer port per valve in the non-comps.

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:56 pm
by Donn
Mark Finley wrote:King horns have a shorter stroke than compensating euphoniums. Not sure why
The stroke is port size + space between ports, right? So one or both of those would have to account for it.

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:36 am
by windshieldbug
My guess is that we Yanks have all the patents on port size changes, which you'd need for ANY shorter strokes...

Re: FOR BAND DIRECTORS: compensating vs. non-compensating

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:01 pm
by Rick F
Mark Finley wrote:Yes but I'm not sure why King can make their valves with a shorter stroke but compensating euphoniums can't or don't
The Miraphone 5050 has a bit shorter action. I measured it at 3/4" (19.05mm) vs my Yamaha 641 which is 7/8" (22.225mm). That's 1/8" (3.175mm) shorter action. Not sure how the German engineers do that with a bore of .610" (15.494mm) through the main valve section of the M5050. I suspect it has to do with the bumps seen inside the ports of the pistons which allow a closer overlap of the tubing that connect the ports.

not a valve from M5050 - just image ref.
Image