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Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:35 am**

DouglasJB wrote:Where would something like the PCK sit? It's not nearly as large as some other 6/4's, but we'll bigger then a 186

I'm confident you'd find that it qualifies as a 6/4 by the official standards I laid out. The Baer is a small 6/4 as well, but qualifies.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:07 am**

A tuba can only be as "big" as the sound put into it.
I find it kind of laughable that some folks seem to think that buying the largest instrument available will automatically give them a "5/4" or "6/4" sound. Buying any tuba is like buying a car without the engine... that's where the player comes in. For most of us, getting a 6/4 is like putting an engine from a Corolla into a Chevy Suburban.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:43 pm**

Ok, sooooo....what about the mouthpice one uses?
(Sorry, too tempting to not include this too.)

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:39 pm**

kmorgancraw wrote:A 5/4 tuba has a bell throat that measures between 17-18.5 inches in circumference at the ferrule. That's the official rule.

6/4 18.5+
4/4 less than 17"
3/4 really small...

These are the official, unquestionable rules for ?/4 tuba sizes.

Hmmm.
But that doesn't take bell length into consideration.
It's the same argument as the valves being called a certain size. But I've worked on BBb Tubas with .728" bore and 14" leadpipe. or .846 with a 30" leadpipe. How do you say which is large bore, when it's all related to a function of bore.

Mark wrote:I have always thought of the PT6P as a prototypical 5/4 size tuba.

The PT6, 5/4, uses the same bell mandrel as the Melton 25 BBb, 4/4....
Also look at Sam Gnagey's CCs.
They take a 4/4 BBb and put a 6/4 Eb bell on it...
So then the pitch comes into it.

Soooo confusing.

The Yamayork is 6/4 but physically small. So is it a small 6/4 or a large 5/4....

Just a few thoughts...

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:01 am**

Hm. But the PT-6 is a CC where the 25 is a BBb. The PT-6 is a relatively larger instrument considering the key.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:11 am**

Dan Schultz wrote:
groth wrote:Anything over 40'' tall might be considered 5/4.
The B & S model 101 tubas with a stovepipe bell are 42" overall and would not qualify as a 5/4 in my estimation.

Have you ever played a Mack Brass TU200? 43.5'' tall and nearly 18'' bell is a big horn. It's billed out as a 4/4, but there's no way (at minimum it's a small 5/4 size). Especially before they move the lead pipes down, it's a very uncomfortably large horn.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:15 am**

eutubabone wrote:Ok, sooooo....what about the mouthpice one uses?
(Sorry, too tempting to not include this too.)

Very true, I have used smaller mouthpieces that make my horn really stuffy and sound like a 3-valve Yamaha top action pea shooter. Other pieces that make it sound as large as a 6/4, (and it's a standard 4/4).

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:38 am**

Hey, Joe, put that old King together and give somebody the chance to play a beautiful instrument - 5/4 or 6/4. I did comparisons, with knowledgeable listeners, and for volume and tone quality it beat the s++t out of Conn 25** and others and was a h++l of a lot easier to play. I'll even offer a couple hints on how to make them even better. I would be VERY interested to know the serial number on that one. It might be one of the Ohio State 6, though have doubts as after I got mine, plus one for Jake they were going to keep them. Harvey thought mine was pretty darned good too.

http://thevillagetinker.com/King%20rotary%20CC%206.jpg" target="_blank

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:51 am**

Dylan King wrote:I think of it like t-shirt sizes.

3/4 = Medium
4/4 = Large
5/4 = XL
6/4 = XXL

There is no size “Small”.
We’re talking tubas, after all.

Small would be a baritone.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:33 am**

Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:The PT6, 5/4, uses the same bell mandrel as the Melton 25 BBb, 4/4....

Is this true? IF soo they are almost certainly using a different section of the mandrel. The PT6 has 2" more bell flare and has a larger bottom bow than the MW25.

If true, they are probably spinning out the bell flare further *and* trimming the 'small end' higher to fit a bigger bottom bow.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am**

(not taking credit for this list)

3/4 - Violinist says, "That's a nice tuba"
4/4 - Clarinetist says, "That tuba sounds good"
5/4 - Trumpeter says, "That's a big tuba"
6/4 - Bass trombonist says, "That's f***ing awesome!"

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:32 pm**

Leland wrote:(not taking credit for this list)

3/4 - Violinist says, "That's a nice tuba"
4/4 - Clarinetist says, "That tuba sounds good"
5/4 - Trumpeter says, "That's a big tuba"
6/4 - Bass trombonist says, "That's f***ing awesome!"

In my experience, other people in the orchestra don't see any difference in any tubas... Most are only thinking, "Yup, that looks like a tuba." Maybe your trombone neighbors will notice, but a violinist? Nope, they don't give two Schitts.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:55 pm**

IMHO, 6/4 is a Martin Mammoth. 5/4 is a Marzan made by Bohm and Meinl.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:13 pm**

joh_tuba wrote:
Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:The PT6, 5/4, uses the same bell mandrel as the Melton 25 BBb, 4/4....
Is this true? IF soo they are almost certainly using a different section of the mandrel. The PT6 has 2" more bell flare and has a larger bottom bow than the MW25.

If true, they are probably spinning out the bell flare further *and* trimming the 'small end' higher to fit a bigger bottom bow.

Told to me by Gerhard Meinl!

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:22 pm**

joh_tuba wrote:
Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:The PT6, 5/4, uses the same bell mandrel as the Melton 25 BBb, 4/4....
Is this true? IF soo they are almost certainly using a different section of the mandrel. The PT6 has 2" more bell flare and has a larger bottom bow than the MW25.

If true, they are probably spinning out the bell flare further *and* trimming the 'small end' higher to fit a bigger bottom bow.

1.25", not that that's much of a difference. 19" vs 17.75".

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm**

I think the Willson 3050 and 3100 are both 5/4 tubas.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:50 pm**

To me, "true" 5/4 contrabass tubas are: B&S PT-6, M-W Thor/Touno, B&S GR 55/51. Some ppl consider the Miraphone 188/187, M-W 25, and Alex 163 to be 5/4-sized tubas, though their bows are slightly skinnier than the above "true" 5/4 tubas.
The big Willson 3050/3100, Gronitz PCK are (to me) large 5/4+ tubas.

Tuba-sizing is something that will always be debated here

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:11 pm**

Yeah, zombie thread. But updates are always necessary. I put up for discussion another tuba to add for debate as to whether it is a 5/4 tuba: Jupiter JTU1110 BBb (formerly 582). Bell: 17.4; large throat and wide taper; .732 primary bore; large bows. If (having played all I list) a 186, a King 1240/1, a Besson New Standard BBb comp, and a few others, define the parameters of a 4/4 size BBb tuba, the Jupiter is larger. Please comment.

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:02 pm**

I think we should consider the "4/4+" designation for things like this. There isn't any definable measurement for what is or isn't a 4/4 and we're all going to say this horn is a 4/4 or this one isn't purely based on opinion. There are some horns I think we could consider as "standards" in their respective size classes...

For 4/4, the 186, 188, King 2341, Eastman 632, are what I see as standard 4/4.

5/4, pretty much the Pt6, 5450, and the Willsons.5/4 standards seem to have more agreement than the 4/4's do.

So where does that leave horns such as the Jupiter or the Miraphone piston horns?

What about the MW 3450 which is fairly small compared to the "standard" 4/4 horns in terms of bow/bell size?

So... Big 4/4, small 4/4, 4/4+, etc.

Good solution? Not sure. That's how I describe the weirdness in tuba sizing.

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:08 pm**

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:02 pm I think we should consider the "4/4+" designation for things like this. There isn't any definable measurement for what is or isn't a 4/4 and we're all going to say this horn is a 4/4 or this one isn't purely based on opinion. There are some horns I think we could consider as "standards" in their respective size classes...

For 4/4, the 186, 188, King 2341, Eastman 632, are what I see as standard 4/4.

5/4, pretty much the Pt6, 5450, and the Willsons.5/4 standards seem to have more agreement than the 4/4's do.

So where does that leave horns such as the Jupiter or the Miraphone piston horns?

What about the MW 3450 which is fairly small compared to the "standard" 4/4 horns in terms of bow/bell size?

So... Big 4/4, small 4/4, 4/4+, etc.

Good solution? Not sure. That's how I describe the weirdness in tuba sizing.

I would call the 187/188 a 4/4+, and I can see your point of calling the Jupiter JTU1110 a 4/4+ also.

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What is a real 5/4 tuba?

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