Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

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DouglasJB
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Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by DouglasJB »

Practicing this morning I noticed when I play on the extreme High range (Bass tuba) above an F above the staff i am starting to develop a habit of using pressure rather than air speed to play notes such as G, Ab, Bb, C and so on, is there anything people have tried to unlearn this habit that has helped?
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

IMO.

Pressure isn't bad. Too much pressure is bad. The right amount of pressure is needed.

Pressure isn't a fault. It is a mitigation. You are not doing something else that you should be doing, so you are making up for it with pressure.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

I just re-read both previous posts.

I also will wait for a long-winded one.

I am not at all sure that replacing pressure with air speed will accomplish anything more than replacing one mitigation with another. YMMV.

I do have a serious question. Do tuba players really worry a lot about high range? I hardly ever hear trumpet players complain they can't play low enough.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by Leland »

timothy42b wrote:I do have a serious question. Do tuba players really worry a lot about high range? I hardly ever hear trumpet players complain they can't play low enough.
I don't. Nobody else except other tuba players care about how high we can play.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by opus37 »

How high? Well, that depends. If you are playing a bass tuba (Eb or F) and you are playing a solo that has some high notes like Eb, F, G etc. above the staff, then it matters how high you can go. (i.e. you can't play that solo without dropping down an octave or you have to talk the euphonium player into doing it). I don't know of any "I can play higher than you" competitions among tuba players. (Trumpet players seem to like to do that.) It is more, "well we got a really low or high part in this one (or a solo) who can/wants to play it?" I play in a brass group that doesn't have a french horn, so I transpose the horn parts into Bb trumpet. Regularly, those parts go too low for the trumpet to play so I have to provide the octave up notes for them. (They don't seem to understand 4 valves or false tones).

As to playing really high with too much pressure, it is a matter of practice. Some suggest arpeggios up and down progressively working higher and going through all scales (it basically builds up strength). Some suggest the Encore series of books on playing high range. They again provide exercise that build strength.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by DouglasJB »

My Jury piece for this Semester is Yorkshire Ballad, which has a high Ab and G. I find I can reach the notes and slightly above (to make the Ab seem less high, and better sounding). I find after practicing for a while I have a very pronounced red ring on my upper lip from pressure.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

On trombone, pressure on the upper lip is a problem. Lower lip, not so much. If it takes effort or strength to reach the high notes, you're doing it wrong.

I haven't played enough tuba recently to know if that's also true there.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by happyroman »

High range playing must be developed over time and can only be accomplished by playing in that register. Arnold Jacobs taught that there must be some pressure from the rim so that the tiny muscles in the lips that are responsible for shaping the embouchure can function properly. However, he would often comment to a student who had a red ring on their lips after playing that he never got one of those because he played with just enough pressure to allow the lips to function inside the cup of the mouthpiece.

Also, he taught that the pressure needs to be equal on the upper and lower lips in order for the embouchure to function properly.

He had his students work on an exercise to develop their upper register (keeping in mind that the development of high register is developing great sounds on those notes). The exercise would be to play what amounted to a scale in any key, starting in the upper middle register. In a slow tempo (quarter note = 60 or slower), you play a half note slurred down to a quarter note, starting on tonic, slurring down to the 7th degree of the scale, then following this pattern: 8-7, 8-6, 8-5, 8-4, 8-3, 8-2, 8-1). Then, staying in the same key, start on the lower note and slur up in a quarter note slurred to a half note (the top note in both cases is always the half note), following this pattern (1-8, 2-8, 3-8, 4-8, 5-8, 6-8, 7-8).

Start in a register where you can sound great on the upper note, and play it daily. After a week (or longer) move the entire exercise up a half step and repeat. Over time, as you move up a half step at a time, your upper register will develop very nicely.

For you, the key will be to take a lot of breaks and make sure that you don't use a lot of pressure (by starting in a register where you don't need to use a lot of pressure just to get the notes out). Over time, as the lip muscles develop, you will not need to use pressure to get the high notes.

Buzzing on the mouthpiece while using just enough pressure to create a seal between the rim and the lips is good practice, too, and is easily transferred back to the tuba.

Two things to keep in mind: 1) practice in the extreme registers should be kept to a total of 20% in the developmental stages (and that includes extreme high and extreme low registers). and 2) if a note does not sound good at the beginning, do not stop and start it over. Hold it for 4-6 seconds focusing on creating the best sound you can. If you stop while it sounds bad, you end up learning how to play a bad note. If you hold it and make it sound better, it will continue to improve over time.

"Bad notes can be made into good notes, silence can't." ~ Arnold Jacobs
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

We can recommend exercises but none of them will work if not done correctly, and some well intentioned ones can be counterproductive.

One session with a good teacher can sometimes clear up a lot of mystery and put you on the right path. If you're struggling with range, usually you don't need more work, but smarter work.

Jacobs may have prescribed that exercise but he also ensured that it was right for that particular student and it was being performed properly so it gave the benefits he wanted. If there were some basic fault getting in the way, he (and any good teacher) addressed it.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by DouglasJB »

I take lessons weekly and we are addressing this issue, sometimes new ideas can spark a thought that can clear things up. This is why I always try to listen to new ideas
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

DouglasJB wrote:I take lessons weekly and we are addressing this issue, sometimes new ideas can spark a thought that can clear things up. This is why I always try to listen to new ideas
My idea is to ask a different question.

Rather than "how do I reduce pressure in high range," I would ask "how can I play high range properly?" and "what am I doing wrong?"

Teachers are not created equal, and if yours can't answer that, you may need another opinion, even if in other ways it is working out well.

When I played more tuba I never wanted or needed to play high. But I wasn't a soloist, just a community band player.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by Slamson »

Whilst I was in grad school, the famous Leon Rapier had a cool technique for teaching high range with as little pressure as possible. In his studio he had a trumpet hanging from the ceiling by two strands of monofilament line. He would walk up to the trumpet and do slur studies on open partials, and the trumpet wouldn't move. Impressive.

Obviously, if he had put too much pressure on the trumpet, it would simply swing away from his body, so he (or his students) had to rely on the chops instead of what usually permits too much pressure.

Being a grad student, I naturally was intelligent enough to realize that if I hung my tuba the same way I would not get the same result... but it did make me realize that my left hand was doing a lot more than just keeping my first valve slide company... I was using it (and the right hand) to pull the instrument toward me (or to keep it from moving away.) More pull, more pressure.

Now whenever I think I'm applying too much pressure in the high range I limit my left hand's involvement in holding the horn to one finger (since I do tend to lean just a tad into the horn instead of sitting perfectly upright.) Too much pressure, and that one finger won't be able to keep the instrument from being pushed over... at the very least it gets very sore. Try it! You'll see!
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

Slamson wrote: Being a grad student, I naturally was intelligent enough to realize that if I hung my tuba the same way I would not get the same result...
Of course not. If you hung up a tuba horizontally like a trumpet you couldn't reach the mouthpiece. Doh.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

bloke wrote:Rafael Mendez was the original "no pressure" guy, and hanging a trumpet by a string was originally his gimmick.

I hope I spelled his name correctly...I'm going to post without googling.
That looks close enough for classical.

I played with him twice back in the early 70s when he did a lot of high school and small town concerts. He was not a no-pressure player from what I remember though I suppose he did the trick on occasion.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

There are a lot of stories about him, I wouldn't want to dispute any of them. A couple of people have told me he could play with the mouthpiece anywhere on his chops. I've heard he rebuilt his embouchure a couple of times after accidents, and various people are alleged to have helped him.

When I met him I was way too inexperienced to be a good observer of pressure or much of anything else. I did ask him about how his incredible projecting tone, and he said he worked on tapering a note down to nothing. I didn't understand that but that's all I got.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by timothy42b »

Home video of Rafael:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ewzmfzlzXQ" target="_blank

One note per day.
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Re: Best way to train no pressure in Extreme High Range

Post by Roger Lewis »

Or..... you could try one of these.....

https://www.thomann.de/gb/stoelzel_meth ... 3bdc988efb" target="_blank

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