Looking for advice

[David Zerkel]

Okay Tubenetters, especially you teachers...here's a puzzler:

I'm teaching at UGA's Summer Music Camp. Today, a rising ninth grader comes in for his lesson. After some small talk, I ask, "What would you like to play?". He says, "My embouchure needs some work. I play with my tongue out." And, by golly, he does play with his tongue out...not just tonguing between the teeth, but STUCK out.

So, we spent the next hour trying to get that sucker back where it belongs, all with negative results. He always sounds better with his tongue out. I watched him on a cutaway mouthpiece, and it's really clear that he is using his tongue as a surrogate for his bottom lip. The only thing that this will hinder is his ability to articulate quickly. In my estimation, he would be able to play 95% of any band music in his current set up. The sound he makes, especailly for a rising ninth grader, is really quite good, but goes directly to hell when we try to get him to play "the right way".

I'm all for thinking outside of the box, but I feel like someone from DFACS will come and taking away my teaching license if we leave this the way it is.

This is a really bright kid who made first chair in GA Junior High All-State Band, with his tongue out. Good sound to high B-flat, good sound to low F . Sight reads really well, phrases well. Plays with his tongue out.

I will see him for one more lesson, and then he'll go home and I may never see him again. Advice?

[Scott Roeder]

Dave,

I actually had a student that did this last year. We were able to switch it but it was a slow road for the student. First I just had her blow wind and keep the tongue in. After a few tries at this we just worked on just vibrating the lips with the wind, no mouthpiece or rim. Basically just getting used to have the lips "flap". Next I had her work on getting a buzz on the rim, a clear mouthpiece, and finally long notes on the tuba. After my student could get the playing happening, we worked on articulating using the same pattern as above just adding the tongue.

I will say that I had the luxury of time and could help with the change in small doses. I also had to be very encouraging because if really frustrated my student. Another thing I had to do was convince her that the change was needed. Once I was able to do that, the progress came much faster.

I hope this helps, PM me if want to talk about it further.

Scott Roeder

[clagar777]

Scott's advice sounds very helpful. One of my buddies in high school made the all-state band for three years, (and played with his toungue sticking out.) It actually took him about a year of being a college tuba player untill he started playing correctly.

[windshieldbug]

I had a high school kid once that could move his tongue forward and back while playing. He did it as as joke (sounded like someone put a phase-shift box in the horn). What was obvious, though, was the difference in resonance of the sound with the tongue in different positions. My instinct then, is to correct it sooner than later, because somewhere down the road they will bump up against a sound issue. Maybe not on the school horn they're using, or against other HS players, but sooner or later it'll happen. It's a crutch, and you've found it out. If you've only got one more lesson, it might be out of your hands, but at least make sure that this student makes the right people aware of it. Or do it yourself, if you can.

[MartyNeilan]

For several years, one of NJ's top players who shall remain nameless would stand behind my head and shout "Tooh" (pronounced toe) at me, sometimes on every note. Having that beaten into me seemed to work wonders for developing a full sound. Might be worth a try. Of course, who are we to be giving advice to you?

[zeman23]

In my estimation, he would be able to play 95% of any band music in his current set up.

if this student plans to pursue a career playing tuba, i would think that the remaining 5% would be crucial. better to solve the issue sooner rather than later, imo.

-zack

[Pippen]

Since you've only got one more lesson with him, if you do decide to encourage him to correct it now, it would probably be good to send him out the door with a *written* list of suggestions of steps he can take towards getting things in their proper place. You might also suggest private lessons for the rest of the summer to help him through it so when he lands back in school in fall he won't be totally frustrated by the decline in skills and go with the easy road instead.

I'm just curious--if he hadn't have told you, do you think you would you have caught it in this one lesson?

[Adam C.]

I conduct a local brass band in which one of the 2nd cornet players does this exact thing. He buzzes with top lip and tongue. He's about 28, an amateur player with a real, money-making job who plays for fun.

He sounds decent on long tones, but not so good on faster articulated passages. There is an improvement in the section's sound when he is not there. I wish someone had corrected his problem early on- it's a source of frustration for him and others because he knows it's a problem and knows what it does. It sounds like the young tuba player knows too.

For the young tubist, on one hand what he's doing will hinder him in the future if he continues, on the other hand he may get so frustrated trying to change that he quits playing tuba.

Tough call, but I think I'd try to change it.

[windshieldbug]

How would such a person do a double-tongue?

[David Zerkel]

Thank all of you for your advice thus far. Very helpful, indeed!

DZ

I'm just curious--if he hadn't have told you, do you think you would you have caught it in this one lesson?

Oh yeah! He looked like he had three lips!

Of course, who are we to be giving advice to you?

The minute that I can't take advice from my colleagues is the exact minute I should quit! I might astound you with just how little I know!

[Mudman]

Tradeoff time: if he wants to pursue music, he should probably switch to a more standard embouchure. His sound is going to deteriorate if he does, but on the plus side, at least he already has a good mental model of a decent tone.

As long as the student doesn't walk around all day with his tongue hanging out, this should be fixable. Try a "Pre-flight Checklist." Write out simple steps on a notecard or piece of paper.

These steps are similar to what a pilot might do before takeoff.

Important: the goal is only to START CORRECTLY. After a couple minutes of playing in a rehearsal, the student will most likely revert to the old habit. Let them know that that's OK. When the director stops the music, the student needs to go through the "pre-flight checklist" again for a safe start.

This approach works great when fixing stubborn problems like instrument grip, posture, or mouthpiece placement.

Helping this student might go something like:

NO TUBA, NO MOUTHPIECE
1. Close lips
2. Blow Air through closed lips (air will open lips a little)
3. Say "tah" to start air moving through closed lips
4. Repeat from step 1.

MOUTHPIECE
1. Start with lips closed.
2. Blow Air and see if you can turn it into a buzz (keeping tongue in mouth)
3. Say "tah" to start air moving through closed lips
4. Repeat from step 1.

TUBA
Same steps as with mouthpiece.

*A well known trumpet player in Britain plays using his tongue as a substitute for a bottom lip. I can't remember which orchestra he is in--London Phil? A colleague of mine went to one of his masterclasses and was blown away by the great (normal) sound and (normal sounding) articulation. Proof that if you have a strong enough mental concept, you can make almost anything work. (I wouldn't try it, but it could probably be made to work on tuba. My gut reaction is that there might be a limit to the low register on tuba given the fairly rigid nature of the tongue.?)

[Ed Jones]

Dave,

I hope that during the lesson that you had him play on a visualizer of some type. And if so, I hope that you 1) pointed at his poor mutant embouchure and laughed hysterically and 2) ran down that hall and drug the rest of the brass faculty in for a looksee.

Seriously, every suggestion is valid and the summer is a great time for him to work things out. No contests or competition to get in the way of becoming a better player.

Hope all is well

[David Zerkel]

I hope that during the lesson that you had him play on a visualizer of some type. And if so, I hope that you 1) pointed at his poor mutant embouchure and laughed hysterically and 2) ran down that hall and drug the rest of the brass faculty in for a looksee.

LOL!

Spoken like a dedicated education professional! Wish you lived closer!

Thanks for the note! Hope all is well! Maybe looking at a springtime TX tour if I can drum up any interest. I'll keep you posted...

Best,
DZ

[Roger Lewis]

I've seen similar problems in a whole studio of players that I inherited from another teacher, though all were creating the sound by vibrating the lower lip insead of the top. First thing I do is assure them about how "simple" the transition will be. If you show fear they will see it.

I start with just air. Have he student hold his hand out at arm's length with the palm facing back toward his face. With the student facing straight ahead, the hand about 6 inches below the line of sight and without moving he head but by focusing the lips, blow air at the hand. I feel that it is necessary to have the air going in the right place first and this will form the lips in a very good low register setting. Just blow air. Now let the lips buzz while blowing the air and buzz the air at the hand. The student can see how the lips are formed in a mirror and get the "feel of a more correct embouchure.

Move the hand 6 inches lower and again without moving the head but by focusing the lips, blow air at the hand. Buzz at the hand - a good mid-range setting.

Blowing this way you cannot have the lower lip doing the work as it would create an up-stream embouchure. I suspect that you cannot do this with the tongue doing the work either.

Lastly place the hand on the chest facing upwards and again without moving the head, blow air on the hand and the embouchure is suited to high range playing.

Using a method that is this visual may help him see and feel the difference and perhaps make a difference. I had my students work on this for only 5 or 10 minutes a day, and play their normal way the rest of the time, so that they wouldn't get frustrated. In less than a month all were playing with a very good sound and a much more efficient embouchure.

Maybe this will help. Good luck - I think with your abilities as a teacher he can beat this without too much angst.

[Pippen]

Oh yeah! He looked like he had three lips!

OH MY! I guess when you wrote his tongue stuck out you really meant it. I don't think I could do that if I tried...

The minute that I can't take advice from my colleagues is the exact minute I should quit! I might astound you with just how little I know!

I know far more about 9th grade boys than I do about embouchure and if he brought up the problem, it's likely he understands that it's something that can use correcting. If he's a smart kid who understands he has a problem and is asking for help it's likely he'll give it a shot. You can provide demonstration/instruction plus simply written "How To's" on your end but I'm betting having a cheerleader on the homefront side would be really valuable. A good instructor would be ideal of course, but a supportive, encouraging parent can go a long way too in helping with the frustration that's is likely to come.

Pippen aka Lisa...who is thinking that those days when she used to bring apple pies to Ed Livingston when she wasn't prepared for her lesson seems like a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

[Drbuzzz]

Hey slappy!

I totally agree with Mudman AND Bloke...Bloke for the "do you want to fix it now or just have a good time?" and Mudman for the preflight check list. What this fella has is a MAJOR bad habit. Bad habits never go away, but we can cover them up with good habits (like a cat covers up...well). As Roger Rocco would tell me time and time again, "A bad habit is like a hungry tiger chasing you...if you stop to turn and look, it will pounce on you...you have to keep charging FORWARD!"

Dave, you know how to teach someone to buzz their lips....what it comes down to is: is this kid ready and willing to put in the time to change this habit? Don't stress out if you can't fix him during summer camp....I don't think you have the time to cure "aids and cancer" all at once! He's gonna need constant reminding, which is why a form of Mudman's preflight checklist would come in handy for all the time he's practicing away from you. "Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice!" Maybe you could offer to see him more often for shorter periods of time...just to make sure he's on track...keep him accountable!

I agree with everyone who mentioned (in so many words) removing the frustration (the tuba) and working solely on the visualizer and mouthpiece for a while. You can't really "fail" (crack notes, bad tone, etc.) on those, so you can retain the positive reinforcement. It's gonna have to be baby steps...and he'll need positive feedback for each little step...just don't accept a backwards step! Of course he'll revert to the bad habits once he's in the trenches (band rehearsal), but maybe he'll try to incorporate the new habits often...and that's all we can really ask for. I know I'd always try to incorporate new concepts my teachers taught me in every rehearsal...and I would often revert to my bad habits...but if we keep charging forward, eventually they lie dormant.

The great thing is, as someone pointed out, if his sound is pretty decent, then he has a great concept of what tuba tone should be...perhaps he won't settle for anything less with his "new" embouchure and that will motivate him. You could also play for him...show him what you can do with a "normal" embouchure...more motivation!!!

Again, this all lies with what the student wants to accomplish. I've seen way too many students bring up their problems (bad habits) just to merely try to entertain me..."Yeah, whew doggy, you sure do have quite a problem there!" (chuckle chuckle)...few of them really wanted to fix it. But I'm like you, I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't try to fix it. (Remind me to tell you about one case where it happened during a college gig interview/audition!!!!)

So, there's my short answer! It's the student's choice, but if he really wants to fix the problem, then I suggest lots of positive reinforcement, motivation and accountability. I'm sure you and he will reap success (no matter how small it may be), and that is surely another motivator....one that may keep him charging forward even once the camp is over!

Good luck my friend...and thanks again for the lesson the other day!

- Andy

PS - I just noticed the part where you said you see him for only one more lesson....nevermind. Let's face it man, you're totally screwed!!!

[Doug@GT]

*trying to think of possible benefits*

The only way I can think of getting a clean articulation while using the tongue in place of the lower lip is to used the "kuh" (as opposed to "tuh") sound. In that case, if he can articulate cleanly now, imagine how good his double-tonguing will be once he learns the correct procedure.

I agree with Joe, though. The camp should be fun, and goodness knows, UGA needs something to make a good impression!!!

[MaryAnn]

I agree with everyone who mentioned (in so many words) removing the frustration (the tuba) and working solely on the visualizer and mouthpiece for a while. You can't really "fail" (crack notes, bad tone, etc.) on those, so you can retain the positive reinforcement. It's gonna have to be baby steps...and he'll need positive feedback for each little step...just don't accept a backwards step! Of course he'll revert to the bad habits once he's in the trenches (band rehearsal), but maybe he'll try to incorporate the new habits often...and that's all we can really ask for. I know I'd always try to incorporate new concepts my teachers taught me in every rehearsal...and I would often revert to my bad habits...but if we keep charging forward, eventually they lie dormant.

I have no input on how to teach him, but having made major changes in technique on various instruments in the past (I'm not a "natural" on anything) ... the concept I use that seems to help is very similar to the above. I tell myself I'm not re-learning how to play tuba, I'm learning an entirely new instrument. That keeps me out of the frustration that I "can't do it right" and puts me in the mindset of learning something new.

That way I don't feel pressured to use unfamiliar technique in situations where I'm playing stuff that is more difficult than my new technique can handle; as I progress I am able to use my new technique on harder and harder scenarios, and eventually I make the "total switch."

He sounds like a neat kid, BTW, to come in for a lesson at that age and want to change something. Not that many people want to correct bad habits.

And back when I was making my living giving lessons, the above philosophy seemed to work pretty well with students who needed major changes, too.

MA

[Joe Baker]

I'm not a tuba teacher... heck, it's debatable if I'm even a tuba player... and I feel totally out of my league saying ANYTHING in this thread.

BUT... one thing that hasn't been said plainly that seems obvious to me is that this kid needs his own clear Kelly mouthpiece and a mirror (or, more likely, a COUPLE of mirrors, so he can see it from the side).

One of my kids had a speech impediment caused by placing the tongue in the wrong place on certain sounds. Describing the problem and the solution was of no use. The kid needed to SEE it done right, then DO it while watching in the mirror. Short periods of practice , several times per day, eventually did the trick. My child was young, only about 7, so five minutes at a time was about the most we could get; for a 14/15-year-old, maybe 4-6 sessions per day, 10-15 minutes at a time would be appropriate.

Maybe this is wrong, but if it were me I'm not sure I'd even TOUCH the horn itself (or at least not without my clear MP and mirrors) for a month or more. I'd make sure that's the ONLY way I EVER buzzed for a month, so it would be THE 'natural' way for me to buzz. Then I'd continue to do the mirror work for some time, to make sure I wasn't slipping back into old habits.
____________________________________
Joe Baker, who knows you will test this against your experience to decide if any of it makes sense before using any of it.

[ThomasP]

It seems obvious to me that this guy taught himself to play with that embouchure (at least I hope he taught himself). I think he would adapt to most situations. Instead of attacking the problem of the tongue sticking out, give him something he can work on and maybe he'll slowly adapt his embouchure until he is able to do what is asked of him (I kind of had double tonguing in mind). Just some way for him to fix the problem without him really knowing he's fixing the problem. It may not work for something so severe, but it's yet another idea.