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5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Chris Olka » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:09 pm

Hey folks, I’ve been playing Alpine Symphony with BSO this week and Mike has been trying a Miraphone Siegfried BBb for the part. He sounds fantastic and it just so happens that I’ve been looking for a large German BBb for orchestral use too. One of the candidates is the 5/4 Rudy.

Is there anyone in the Midwest that has one they might be willing to bring to Cincinnati for me to try? I’d of course be indebted and make it worth your time. If you are one such person, please send me a PM so we could work out details.

Thanks so much in advance.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby jtuba » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:04 am

WCRB Sat night 8:00 EST, in case anyone wants to hear this.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:26 am

Chris,
Before you decide. I'd really advise trying the Cerveny CBB693-4R or the 696-4R. They really are good.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mark » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:I'd really advise trying the Cerveny CBB693-4R or the 696-4R. They really are good.


Can you get these with five valves?
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby marccromme » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Yes, Cerveny CBB693-5R or the 696-5R can be ordered with 5 valves.

But on their web site you can only see the 4-vavle versions http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/rotary-valve/tubas/bbb-tubas

There was one for sale on the German e-bay 2 month ago with 5 valves (5th valve above the other 4).

The Berliner tuba makes conversions from 4 to 5 valves where the 5th is situated after the first 4 valves. Ask him for pictures ...
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby BBruce107 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:02 pm

Hi Chris,

I own a CC version of the horn and I must say it is one heck of a horn and I would imagine the BBb is an absolute monster compared to the CC. If you are interested in trying the CC I would be happy to allow you to play on mine and get a feel for it. My only complaint is that the bore size is MASSIVE (.835 if I recall properly) and it can get pretty woofy.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Chris Olka » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:26 am

Thanks for the offer! I’ve played a number of the 5/4 CCs and they play great. However, I’m really trying to compare apples to apples in regards to BBbs. Thanks for the offer though!
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Tubro » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:46 pm

As a German B-falt player I would highly recommend to test with a real B-flat mouthpiece, especially if you are going to try traditional German B flat Tuben. Most of the Helleberg Style mouthpieces doesn´t work very well on B-flat on the other hand our B-flat mouthpieces doesn´t work very well on CC Tuba. On a few CC mouthpieces the bore is to small for some of the traditional B-flat Tuben.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby marccromme » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:34 am

Here you are :

CERVENY BBb-TUBA CBB 686-5PRX http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/ ... b-tuba.php

Cerveny ARION BBb KAISERTUBA CBB 793-5RX PIGGY http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb_793_5mrx.php

Cerveny KAISER BBb TUBA KOMPAKTMODEL CBB 693-5PRX http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb_693_5mrx.php
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v compensated euph
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:16 am

Mark wrote:
Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:I'd really advise trying the Cerveny CBB693-4R or the 696-4R. They really are good.


Can you get these with five valves?

Yes you can, but as many Players of Rotary Bb have found, the 4 valve versions play better.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:21 am

marccromme wrote:Here you are :

CERVENY BBb-TUBA CBB 686-5PRX http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/ ... b-tuba.php" target="_blank

Cerveny ARION BBb KAISERTUBA CBB 793-5RX PIGGY http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb_793_5mrx.php" target="_blank

Cerveny KAISER BBb TUBA KOMPAKTMODEL CBB 693-5PRX http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb_693_5mrx.php" target="_blank

Interesting site!
The 693 is neither an Arion, nor a Piggy. and the 686 is a 4/4 Bb
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:23 am

Tubro wrote:As a German B-falt player I would highly recommend to test with a real B-flat mouthpiece, especially if you are going to try traditional German B flat Tuben. Most of the Helleberg Style mouthpieces doesn´t work very well on B-flat on the other hand our B-flat mouthpieces doesn´t work very well on CC Tuba. On a few CC mouthpieces the bore is to small for some of the traditional B-flat Tuben.

Great point!!
Which mouthpieces would you recommend?
I've been trying Laskey 30H/B/G on my 693 and decided they don't really work.
Using a DE T cup with a 6 backbore and that's much better. But info on what's used in Germany would be great!
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby oedipoes » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:09 am

Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:Yes you can, but as many Players of Rotary Bb have found, the 4 valve versions play better.


Maybe, but 5 valves gives you many more options in the low register.
Perhaps not needed for orchestral playing, but I have done the 4 rotary valve thing in brassband, and did miss an extra valve!
I dislike almost everything about the 3+1 BBb compensators, except you can just push buttons for all notes (no slide adjustment between notes) and blow (a lot...).

My current BBb (Rudy 4/4) was rebuilt from 4 -> 5 valves and I'm very happy with that, no noticeable drawbacks in my opinion.
My kaisertuba rebuilt project will include 5 valves as well... can't wait!

Btw, I find the WH-B2 and PT88+ to be excellent for all my BBb playing, but that's maybe just me... I even use a WH-B1 on my pre-sovereign Besson EEb in brassband, so what do I know...
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby gwwilk » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:44 am

oedipoes wrote:
Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:Yes you can, but as many Players of Rotary Bb have found, the 4 valve versions play better.


Maybe, but 5 valves gives you many more options in the low register.

My 5/4 Rudolf-Meinl Bayreuth has only 4 valves. I lamented the lack of a 5th valve to Lee Stofer during one of my visits for maintenance, and Lee correctly pointed out that the missing Eb and below down to the BB just above the fundamental BBb are admirably served by false or privileged tones. These, starting with the open Eb are quite bendable and easily tuned to the pitch you desire/hear-in-your-head. Our Community Concert Band is performing James Curnow's Overture to a Winter Festival in a week. That low Eb as half-note bell tones sounds (optionally, but who can resist) repeatedly alternating with the low F a step above it for six measures from 143 to 149, and it's great fun. You have to tune the false tones by ear, but you can get them spot on.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:19 pm

oedipoes wrote:
Maybe, but 5 valves gives you many more options in the low register.
Perhaps not needed for orchestral playing, but I have done the 4 rotary valve thing in brassband, and did miss an extra valve!
I dislike almost everything about the 3+1 BBb compensators, except you can just push buttons for all notes (no slide adjustment between notes) and blow (a lot...).


Btw, I find the WH-B2 and PT88+ to be excellent for all my BBb playing, but that's maybe just me... I even use a WH-B1 on my pre-sovereign Besson EEb in brassband, so what do I know...


I've found false tones more than adequate for low C and B and ever use them up to Eb for some things.
I think it depends on the instrument. They feel different, but on hearing them recorded they don't sound any different to the valved notes. Melton have adopted my design for the removeable 5th for their Bbs with the 4th next to the 1st and 3rd. Which keeps the instrument freer blowing. BTW I used to use a Miraphone 190B 5v in brass band with great success. That blew really well.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby oedipoes » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:05 pm

Mike-Johnson-Custom wrote:BTW I used to use a Miraphone 190B 5v in brass band with great success. That blew really well.


Good to know! Thought I was the only one ...
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Patrase » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:00 am

My Fafner now has 6 valves. Flat whole tone and flat half tone. Built into the fourth valve as dependent valves. It makes low register playing 'pull free' and almost as easy as a 3+1 compensator. Also reduces the number of valves in the main bugle.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby jeopardymaster » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:22 pm

There is a Martin/King/Conn BBb on the market that I test-drove a few years back. It is an amazing instrument, though kind of impractical in a setting SMALLER than, say, Alpine Symphony at Music Hall. Sam Gnagey did a masterful job on it. I passed because it was just too much horn to be practical for me in most settings, and my Alex 163 is usually a much better fit for when I want a big BBb. You might want to check it out, especially if you already have a high comfort level with a big piston horn.
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby rudysan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:21 pm

If you pass near Montreal, there is a folk here who has one. Amazing tuba, easy to play !
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Re: 5/4 Rudy BBb for testing

Postby Mike-Johnson-Custom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:50 am

oedipoes wrote:
Btw, I find the WH-B2 and PT88+ to be excellent for all my BBb playing, but that's maybe just me... I even use a WH-B1 on my pre-sovereign Besson EEb in brassband, so what do I know...


Just ordered a WH-B2. been thinking that's the way for a while!
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