New to me Holton

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brianf
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by brianf »

I have a 5/4 York BB Flat that looks like this but silver plated. During that era, York made Holton tubas - Holton previously worked for York. A few weeks ago I picked it up at Lee Stofer's and he had a three valve Holton from that time. We compared them back and forth for a while and discovered that the second valve slides were the same bore. The only thing that is concerning is the lacquer - I'll bet that this went through an overhaul at one time.
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The Big Ben
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by The Big Ben »

That is a beauty! A guy who plays in a concert band with me bought a nice one of these a few months ago. Not as old but in very nice shape. Have fun! I don't know that I could handle a howitzer like that. Hope you can!!!
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Donn
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Donn »

Oh yeah - I took on a Holton 109 a couple years ago, and for me it did take a little getting used to - but it's good for you. I took my King 1240 to a concert yesterday for a change, because it was going to be a tight squeeze, and was pleased to hear it sounding quite a lot better than I remembered. The Holton is kind of a breath trainer.

As for lacquer and overhauls etc., for me it's all about the end result. Sounds like this one turned out well. I think my Holton had its original early 1941 lacquer - had the pebbly texture and brown color of an old suitcase, although of course only in a few places, as much of it was worn off.
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Tabor »

Here is a photos of a York 91 and a Holton Mammoth (though later than this one) side by side. Like the 3/4 models I have had, this Holton is a bit taller and skinnier through the body while the York is rounder.

Image
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Ken Crawford
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Ken Crawford »

Holtons were being made in Chicago while Yorks were being made in Grand Rapids to the best of my internet research.
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Donn
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Donn »

Tabor wrote:Here is a photos of a York 91 and a Holton Mammoth (though later than this one) side by side.
Where the Holton is on the right, right? To me, your Holton picture looks like a Holton - top or front valves, they have those big fat ferrules, the tight top bow. kmorgancraw's looks more like that York. Could just be the lighting, though, and anyway, it isn't obvious to me that looks are a reliable guide to pedigree. Though I guess if you could tell those two tubas apart by listening to them, it would be interesting to know which one kmorgancraw's sounds more like.
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Tabor »

Donn wrote:
Tabor wrote:Here is a photos of a York 91 and a Holton Mammoth (though later than this one) side by side.
Where the Holton is on the right, right? To me, your Holton picture looks like a Holton - top or front valves, they have those big fat ferrules, the tight top bow. kmorgancraw's looks more like that York. Could just be the lighting, though, and anyway, it isn't obvious to me that looks are a reliable guide to pedigree. Though I guess if you could tell those two tubas apart by listening to them, it would be interesting to know which one kmorgancraw's sounds more like.
I think I read somewhere that York used Holton mandrels or vice versa for developing their large bell. The old Holton bells are often spun out to 22+ inches, just like York, and the older ones often seem to have thinner ferrules. The loops on the body all sit higher. The center of gravity on the York is lower. The sizes and arrangement of the parts are close, they might even use some identical mandrels and be able to be switched part to part, but some of the parts have to be at least bent differently because of how the spacing on the tubas are.

I have played these two back to back, and I have played Lost's York 91 and Holton mammoth back to back. His older Holton mammoth sounds and plays just like a 91 and I would not be able to tell it from a York 91 by sound or how it plays alone. The look is different. (the taller loops) I don't know how much of that is the Holton, and how much of it is what Martin Wilk did to it. In addition to making it stunningly dent free, he gave it some really beautiful york style bracing from the valve tubing to the bell.
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Daniel C. Oberloh
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Daniel C. Oberloh »

Nuff with the Old repeated myths. Holton and York, and MARTIN for that matter, did not work out of each others shops. Designs and tooling are not the same and they both had the in-house tooling, workforce and skills to produce there own parts and instruments. York and Martin did make stencils for other companies, as did Buescher. Long ago York made tubas for Blessing and Blessing made some trumpets for York. Those Blessing tubas were identical to those made by York, down to the caps and braces, only engraved differently.

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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Alex C »

lost wrote:
brianf wrote:During that era, York made Holton tubas - Holton previously worked for York.
York 5/4 monsters are what we mostly consider 6/4 tubas today if anyone is wondering.

I disagree with the theory York made Holton tubas. They are completely different tapers. I own a monster york and holton from the same period and have measured them and took photographs side by side. Holton had their own plant, as did York.
I hate to say this, but I'm fairly certain Mr. Fredrickson is correct about the Holton/York connection. First. Mr. Fredrickson is a quality source for all things tuba.

The connection would continued been no later than the 1930's because York was just about out of the "fine tuba" business by the time WWII started. Holton continued making big tubas even though they weren't York quality. I have also heard about the Holton/York story from a completely unrelated source around 2008 and I poo-poohed it at the time even though the source is well-placed. I think I was wrong, especially with Brian chiming in on the topic.
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by roweenie »

I believe Mr. Oberloh is correct in his assertions.
lost wrote:What would be better than having two physical horns side by side and from the same period and measuring them?
Indeed, and going one step further, what would be better than listening to a guy who has had his hands inside their guts? After all, he has taken apart enough of these horns to know, wouldn't one think?

(While I haven't taken apart nearly as many as he has, I have also seen the differences in taper, length, etc. - they would have to have been made using different tooling.)

I will concede that it is likely that the York 6/4 was the inspiration for Frank Holton's 6/4 horn (he did work for York before he started out on his own) but I think that's as far as it goes.

York did supply stencils for other companies, but the Holton 6/4 is just too different to have been made using York's 6/4 tooling.

Now, if there is concrete evidence (not hearsay) to prove otherwise, I'd be happy to be corrected.
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Donn »

A comparison between two tubas is a measure of coincidence. Whether the two coincide or not, there are presumably explanations for how that could happen, whether they're made in the same factory or two different factories. If that matters, there's no substitute for historical information. It seems like about the least important thing, though, as a practical matter.
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Re: New to me Holton

Post by Tabor »

roweenie wrote:I believe Mr. Oberloh is correct in his assertions.

I will concede that it is likely that the York 6/4 was the inspiration for Frank Holton's 6/4 horn (he did work for York before he started out on his own) but I think that's as far as it goes.
Me too. But I do wonder about the hearsay with the bells. I guess the Chinese show us that a manufacturer doesn't really need original tooling to make a copy of a part.

Lost said his York was "much preferred" but that Holton is also great tuba with a great sound. He may have better ears than me, has had more time on the horn, and no doubt has been able to play them in different rooms. For me it wasn't the York sound, but the incredible ease/response that was the major difference that set the York apart. I could hear a greater difference between the York 91 and the 1965 Holton mammoth with the smaller bell flare.
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