What should be a simple request

[Doug Elliott]

Dave Wilkin has done a good job putting a lot of videos together on the subject of embouchure but it can still be very confusing, especially if you're missing one piece of the puzzle.

I don't know if you realize that I am actually the source of that information. I can diagnose and fix most problems in less time than it takes to watch one video. I'm offering Skype time to help, take it or leave it.

[Donn]

It's unclear who, if anyone, really has the problem, or if this is more of an academic discussion. If your Skype help offer extends to addressing a quarrel between a couple french horn players, that's quite generous.

[smitwill1]

Re lexan mouthpiece and condensation: I've used lens de-fogger inside the mouthpiece (apply a thin film and wipe it off; the residue is sufficient to reduce fogging for a few minutes). Not an appealing name, but then I didn't name it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ONRP8C/re ... 99563&th=1

[MaryAnn]

If a visualizer had the exact same rim (dimensions & contour) I would seat it the exact same place as my real mouthpiece. The resistance would differ between real mouthpiece and the visualizer, but the amount of lip shown within the visualizer rim would be realistic.

Because of an incissor edge against my upper lip, I play with an absolute minimum of pressure. Still I play against the mouthpiece to seal the airpath transition from me to the mouthpiece. Asking me to keep the same lip position, when removing the mouthpiece during a buzz never would lead to any realistic observations.

Klaus

I said stop the buzz, THEN remove the mouthpiece and take a picture.
MA

[MaryAnn]

Remember, this is the horn world, not the tuba world, we're talking about. The horn world thinks that embouchures follow Farkas rules and somehow develop by magic. I am very familiar with the Willktone embouchure types myself, having put quite a bit of time into trying and deciding based on results, but for a horn student who was never told anything but 2/3 top and 1/3 bottom, and Use More Air when they have a problem....there are talented people out there who could be high contributors if horn teachers would just get their heads out of where they are, which is dark. I took tuba lessons from two guys...and both SHOWED ME in the first lesson, what they did with their lips for high and low. You simply will not find a horn teacher who will do that, for no reason I can find other than horn playing is a Mystery School. I think what I need to do is find a horn player who has an excellent full range and talk them into doing exactly what I'm talking about, or more than one horn player (with a different set) and then just post the stupid pictures on Facebook and let them have at it. You know, Farkas kind of started that but stopped with his pictures of "professional embouchures at rest" with a WIDE variety of sets, some of them wildly different from the 2/3 - 1/3 that is the Horn Bible Embouchure. And yes, this is scholastic type stuff, which is what I do. I don't teach, for the last several months I've had a medical problem with my arms that makes it impossible to play, and the horn people always assume I am trying to get them to teach me online, which is laughable besides being impossible.

[Doug Elliott]

I have no trouble teaching horn players except remembering the transposition.

And most people who diagnose themselves are wrong.

[imperialbari]

If a visualizer had the exact same rim (dimensions & contour) I would seat it the exact same place as my real mouthpiece. The resistance would differ between real mouthpiece and the visualizer, but the amount of lip shown within the visualizer rim would be realistic.

Because of an incissor edge against my upper lip, I play with an absolute minimum of pressure. Still I play against the mouthpiece to seal the airpath transition from me to the mouthpiece. Asking me to keep the same lip position, when removing the mouthpiece during a buzz never would lead to any realistic observations.

Klaus

I said stop the buzz, THEN remove the mouthpiece and take a picture.
MA

Same problem. Remove the rim, and the frame of the tension changes. My aperture opens up.

Embouchures cannot be formed 1:1 after even the best role model. The photos in the Farkas book show big differences, even lateral asymmetries. Haven’t seen that book since 30 years, but especially one horn embouchure was odd enough for me to remember it.

Klaus

[MaryAnn]

Yes but this is for general concept for a student who isn't getting anywhere with verbal descriptions. In that case, I suppose a visualizer would be just as good except that it is less close to what the teacher actually does.

I remember one horn embouchure in which the fellow had kind of a large knob in the middle of his upper lip that would get in the way of the buzz in a "regular" embouchure. The owner of that one had crammed that knob into the very top of the rim, and his embouchure was almost 100% lower lip. Somehow he regulated his buzz with his lower lip against that knob and clearly it worked for him.

Believe it or not, I found that picture on my computer.

[Doug Elliott]

A completely normal upstream embouchure, not really worthy of "believe it or not" status. Lots of players have that embouchure. Dennis Brain was one.

Dave Wilkin's own embouchures is that type, that's why he got interested in this subject when I helped him get it working.

[MaryAnn]

Tell that to 99.9% of horn players.

[Doug Elliott]

Or for that matter 99.9 percent of tuba players.
But every once in a while I run into somebody with an open mind who actually wants to learn something.
I have worked with plenty of horn and tuba players, including some who are members here.