What should be a simple request

[MaryAnn]

If I asked someone here to play an Eb just below the staff, freeze the embouchure in place (stop the buzz but nothing else,) remove the cup, and take a picture of the chops, is that so hard?
Then to play an Eb two octaves above that and do the same thing? To demonstrate the difference in lip position to someone who is a visual learner?

(I'm headed for one of my squabbles with the horn world again, which is why this may sound like it came from the middle of an argument. Roger Lewis puts it into words so well, it seems we could do the same for visual learners who may be just as talented but simply have a different way of learning.)

[tylerferris1213]

It may be simpler to buy/make a visualizer.

[MaryAnn]

I agree with the concept but doubt if very many people use their exact embouchure with a visualizer.

[DonShirer]

Would a clear plastic mouthpiece let you look at the lips?

[Tubajug]

Would a clear plastic mouthpiece let you look at the lips?

They're ok, but they tend to fog up almost instantly, making it hard to see much of anything.

[imperialbari]

If a visualizer had the exact same rim (dimensions & contour) I would seat it the exact same place as my real mouthpiece. The resistance would differ between real mouthpiece and the visualizer, but the amount of lip shown within the visualizer rim would be realistic.

Because of an incissor edge against my upper lip, I play with an absolute minimum of pressure. Still I play against the mouthpiece to seal the airpath transition from me to the mouthpiece. Asking me to keep the same lip position, when removing the mouthpiece during a buzz never would lead to any realistic observations.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

Would a clear plastic mouthpiece let you look at the lips?

They're ok, but they tend to fog up almost instantly, making it hard to see much of anything.

Sounds like your lungs need an inline water filter like on an air compressor. All professional tuba players have this simple surgery done within six months of starting their first full time gig. Oh! I think I just let one of the brotherhood's secrets out! Whoops!

Don't they ask to see your union card before the doctor will operate?

[swillafew]

To demonstrate the difference in lip position to someone who is a visual learner?

.....

Bill Bell's book describes putting your thumb over a garden hose to introduce speeding up the air with a smaller aperture.

That ought to be visual enough.

[Donn]

The Three Basic Brass Embouchure Types

That should cover a lot of it, I would think.

[WakinAZ]

If it's really that difficult to show someone how to play in the middle range and high, maybe brass playing just isn't their thing.
Could you not do this yourself with one of your mouth pieces and your phone camera?

This sounds like an argument not worth having to me.

[Donn]

Could you not do this yourself with one of your mouth pieces and your phone camera?

Did you look at that Dave Wilken video?

The Three Basic Brass Embouchure Types

His site http://www.wilktone.com/ currently features a several page rant on the complexities of trying to instruct someone on this matter.

[Art Hovey]

What works for one person does not for the next. I think you'll find that no two tubists use the same embouchures for the same notes. We all experiment and discover what works best for us. First you discover a way to hit the note, then you work on making it sound better.

[Doug Elliott]

Five minutes on Skype?

[Doug Elliott]

Dave Wilkin has done a good job putting a lot of videos together on the subject of embouchure but it can still be very confusing, especially if you're missing one piece of the puzzle.

I don't know if you realize that I am actually the source of that information. I can diagnose and fix most problems in less time than it takes to watch one video. I'm offering Skype time to help, take it or leave it.

[Donn]

It's unclear who, if anyone, really has the problem, or if this is more of an academic discussion. If your Skype help offer extends to addressing a quarrel between a couple french horn players, that's quite generous.

[smitwill1]

Re lexan mouthpiece and condensation: I've used lens de-fogger inside the mouthpiece (apply a thin film and wipe it off; the residue is sufficient to reduce fogging for a few minutes). Not an appealing name, but then I didn't name it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ONRP8C/re ... 99563&th=1

[MaryAnn]

If a visualizer had the exact same rim (dimensions & contour) I would seat it the exact same place as my real mouthpiece. The resistance would differ between real mouthpiece and the visualizer, but the amount of lip shown within the visualizer rim would be realistic.

Because of an incissor edge against my upper lip, I play with an absolute minimum of pressure. Still I play against the mouthpiece to seal the airpath transition from me to the mouthpiece. Asking me to keep the same lip position, when removing the mouthpiece during a buzz never would lead to any realistic observations.

Klaus

I said stop the buzz, THEN remove the mouthpiece and take a picture.
MA

[MaryAnn]

Remember, this is the horn world, not the tuba world, we're talking about. The horn world thinks that embouchures follow Farkas rules and somehow develop by magic. I am very familiar with the Willktone embouchure types myself, having put quite a bit of time into trying and deciding based on results, but for a horn student who was never told anything but 2/3 top and 1/3 bottom, and Use More Air when they have a problem....there are talented people out there who could be high contributors if horn teachers would just get their heads out of where they are, which is dark. I took tuba lessons from two guys...and both SHOWED ME in the first lesson, what they did with their lips for high and low. You simply will not find a horn teacher who will do that, for no reason I can find other than horn playing is a Mystery School. I think what I need to do is find a horn player who has an excellent full range and talk them into doing exactly what I'm talking about, or more than one horn player (with a different set) and then just post the stupid pictures on Facebook and let them have at it. You know, Farkas kind of started that but stopped with his pictures of "professional embouchures at rest" with a WIDE variety of sets, some of them wildly different from the 2/3 - 1/3 that is the Horn Bible Embouchure. And yes, this is scholastic type stuff, which is what I do. I don't teach, for the last several months I've had a medical problem with my arms that makes it impossible to play, and the horn people always assume I am trying to get them to teach me online, which is laughable besides being impossible.

[Doug Elliott]

I have no trouble teaching horn players except remembering the transposition.

And most people who diagnose themselves are wrong.

[imperialbari]

If a visualizer had the exact same rim (dimensions & contour) I would seat it the exact same place as my real mouthpiece. The resistance would differ between real mouthpiece and the visualizer, but the amount of lip shown within the visualizer rim would be realistic.

Because of an incissor edge against my upper lip, I play with an absolute minimum of pressure. Still I play against the mouthpiece to seal the airpath transition from me to the mouthpiece. Asking me to keep the same lip position, when removing the mouthpiece during a buzz never would lead to any realistic observations.

Klaus

I said stop the buzz, THEN remove the mouthpiece and take a picture.
MA

Same problem. Remove the rim, and the frame of the tension changes. My aperture opens up.

Embouchures cannot be formed 1:1 after even the best role model. The photos in the Farkas book show big differences, even lateral asymmetries. Haven’t seen that book since 30 years, but especially one horn embouchure was odd enough for me to remember it.

Klaus