VW Vs. Gregson...which would win?

[Uncle Buck]

Will the tuba ever "arrive" as a solo instrument in the same sense that the violin, flute, horn, trombone, trumpet, bassoon, etc. has? Given its very nature, I'm not too hopeful.

Nor do I care about that particular prospect. Supporting roles, with occasional character pieces, are fine if you ask me.

I'll have to chime in here and say that I agree. Is this not what the instrument was invented to do?

I was walking out of an orchestra concert once and a kid who saw me leaving pointed and said to his mom, "There's the guy who plays loud at the end!"

I'd rather be that guy than somebody in the viola section who plays a million notes in the concert, but never gets noticed.

Of course, I'd prefer to be Yo Yo Ma over either of those options, but that's not going to happen . . .

[adam0408]

Chuck(G), AND JUST ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE HERE APPARENTLY, with all due respect, I think you are limiting your conception of the tuba because of your preconceived notions about the instrument.

People doing this, players and composers alike, is the reason the tuba has such a small amount of literature with much of it being hokey and meant simply for humorous effect.

Cases for the tuba as a solo instrument:

It fills a niche that many instruments do not. No other solo instrument can go as low as the tuba. The only reason people dont hear low solo instruments is because composers traditionally have not composed for them.

The tuba has a range that is pretty much unmatched by any other wind instrument. 5+ octaves. Very impressive and a lot of potential there. I think that there is even more potential for range in the tuba, as I continue to surprise myself with what I can squeak out on my CC.

The tuba, contrary to popular belief, can both fill the role of a light instrument and a bombastic and intimidating force. Not to mention everything in between. It may take a little more finesse to play in some styles, but it is definately doable. Look at the french horn. Now that is a REALLY tough instrument. Mechanically that thing is just..... AHHHH. Small pipes with a length comparable to a tuba. Insane. But I digress.

Most if not all humans are unable to double tounge on woodwind instruments. This limits them. The tuba is not limited in this respect. point: Tuba literature is not on pace with other less technically capable instruments. See range point as well. Woodwinds have limited range. They (in my opinion) are often not as expressive as a brass instrument or even *gasp* a tuba. However, they have much more literature. This does not make much sense.

And honestly, who cares if Beethoven didnt write anything for Tuba. I sure dont, because I can STEAL what he wrote for other instruments, and make it sound better than when they play it.

I see the issue as such: Tubas are forced to play a supporting role all the time because thats the way it has always been. Lets have a piece where there is four part writing in the tubas and one boring trumpet part that is divided in octaves. THAT would be refreshing and different, not like this Eric Whitaker October nonsense (dont get me wrong, its a good piece, just not revolutionary) And the way too much watered down john williams crap we see from composers like Jim Curnow.

Okay, this may ruffle a few feathers here, but as a tuba player is the reason you don't care about solos is because you're LAZY and never want to practice your band music? Do you want to be able to play 90% of the pieces that come across your stand on the second or third time you go through them? That means you never have to seriously buckle down and practice. The less solo stuff out there for the tuba the better? Just so we can continue to be lazy and not practice to sound as good as other instruments on our parts? Tubas don't get solos because tuba players are lazy beer drinkers. Myself included.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

If we as tubists, who have more insight into the instrument's potential than anyone else, do not have a vision of a richer musical future for the tuba, then who will???

We have to inspire composers, and music directors to provide more, and better literature/opportunities for tubists. We will meet many musical obstacles, and prejudices along the way, but we must continue along the path, undeterred. There will be more failures, than successes, but there will be successes!

(hopping down off soapbox.......)

[ThomasP]

The two Hardest movements of works in the tuba repertoire that I've played are the Second Movement of the Hindemith Sonate and the Third Movement of the VW Concerto.

They are both extremely hard to put together with the piano or accompinament you're playing with.

[Chuck(G)]

Chuck(G), AND JUST ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE HERE APPARENTLY, with all due respect, I think you are limiting your conception of the tuba because of your preconceived notions about the instrument.

Fair enough, Adam; I feel I should respond.

I enjoy a novelty act just as much as the next guy. I tend to think of a bottle not as a musical instrument, but as something in which to hold a liquid. Does that make the middle section of de Meij's "Extreme Makeover" unmusical?

Of course not! But it's still a novelty act and pretty cool at that. As is Susan Nigro doing one of her masterful contrabassoon solos. As was Tommy Reilly playing the RVW Romance for Harmonica. As is anyone playing the RVW Concerto for Bass Tuba. As is dog dancing. Masterful, but very novel. Is it artful? It certainly has the potential to be. Is it mainstream? Not in a million years.

It seems that we see a lot of postings on this forum about performance of Air and Bouree, the RVW concerto, the 'cello suites, the Gregson, Effie, and loads of solo works. But nary a posting about the technique of supporting other instruments and blending.

And that is the primary function of our instrument. I can't recall seeing many postings about what the technique for supporting string bass with tuba should be. Or how one best blends with the trombone section.

To me, it's mostly a matter of priorities. Debating the merits of the Gregson vs. the RVW seems to be a case of misplaced ones.

[MartyNeilan]

I wonder how many 21st Century (young) players have received the bandstand instruction, "Quit screwin' around and play the @#$%^&* bass."

Well, I had an instructor in the 20th century who was infamous for supposedly hollering "Blow and Count, you dumb f&*^!" after a student was trying to make more out of something than need be. Close 'nuff!

[Rick Denney]

I wonder how many people who have commented on the repetitiveness of the Gregson have heard it or performed it with an actual orchestra, and not the tonally more limited brass band acompaniment.

Vaughan Williams is my favorite composer, and some of his work makes my hair stand on end. But not the tuba concerto, which, in the words of a well-known player with whom I discussed just this question recently, would sound about the same if played on a bassoon. The tuba either has to take the heroism effect to the extreme or it has to parody it.

The Gregson has a heroic quality that is the hallmark of great brass music from the Strauss Horn Concerto to the opening bars of Mahler's 5th. And the climax of the second movement with the three Eb's in descending octaves makes my hair stand on end.

I've heard the best tuba players in history perform the Vaughan Williams with results ranging from unglued to missing-the-point beautiful. I've only heard the Gregson performed with orchestra by one performer, and it made a big impression on me (it's on Hans Nickel's Cantuballada). Nickel is a great performer, but I think the Gregson really hasn't had the exposure in front of an orchestra that the RVW has, and therefore it's a little difficult to make comparisons.

Most people have only their practice-room experience on which to base their judgment, though they have all heard the greatest tuba players in history play the Vaughan Williams.

As to Chuck's comment, just because the tuba is a novelty instrument in a solo setting doesn't mean it can't provide an artistically satisfying performance (which a dancing dog cannot do). But we have to play music that says something more than "look at me!" We have to go beyind the old talking-dog joke--that it's not that the dog can talk well but that the dog can talk at all. A lot of the RVW is in the "look at me!" category, the second movement being the exception. The Gregson fares better from that perspective, it seems to me. The Hindmith is better still, but it is not a concerto and it is tonally inaccessible to most audiences.

Rick "who can't play either one" Denney

[adam0408]

wow, I did ruffle feathers, but my feathers were ruffled first and I felt it my duty to respond.

Yep, I have opinions just like everybody else, and I guess its up to me to prove all the naysayers wrong about the tuba, and prove that its not just my opinion. If I fail, well then, I will let someone else do it for me. I am just trying to get people to open their minds....... Trying to make the instrument something more than what it is right now to most non-musicians: A JOKE. When Roger Bobo or Arnold Jacobs played, it was not a joke. Lets attain that level of playing all the time! But mainstream? What classical instrument IS mainstream. Hell, what wind instrument is mainstream? Electronic is mainstream these days, and its gonna take a huge revelution to make it any different, and frankly I dont care if the tuba becomes mainstream. I just want people to give the tuba some room to do different things.

But unfortunately, a joke is what it is now to most people. When you say you play the tuba they go "oh yeah, oom-pah oom pah, oom pah!! Tubas rule because they are so silly and big!" I am tired of that preconceived notion and I want some respect from all those self righteous clarinet and trumpet players. **** ***** ********!!

Yes, I realize there are a quite a few WONDERFUL solo pieces out there for the tuba. However, as many have said, the repretoire is severely lacking compared to other instruments. What most people are aware of are the hokey and cheesy parts the tuba plays. See above oom pah comment.

AHHHH About the supporting role of the tuba. That is something that I pay attention to QUITE carefully in concert band. Occasionally I will get bored and play something off color (overblown, underphrased, and overall crappy tone) but I make support my first and foremost thought when I am playing with an ensemble where the part calls for it.

Jim curnow, Where Never Lark or Eagle Flew, is one of my least favorite pieces that I have played in college. He is a first class arranger, as is seen in his concert band arrangement of The Cowboys, but his original writing lacks depth, and is tepid at best. Show me something to the contrary and I will change my opinion. Just because I am a college student does not mean that I have to censor my opions simply because someone makes money composing.

I dont even know why I am having this discussion here. This is really off topic. Sorry. [/i]

[Chuck(G)]

As to Chuck's comment, just because the tuba is a novelty instrument in a solo setting doesn't mean it can't provide an artistically satisfying performance (which a dancing dog cannot do).

Rick, I didn't say a dancing dog, I said dog dancing, which many will argue is quite an artistic endeavor.

See, for example, the WCFO site:

http://www.worldcaninefreestyle.org/video_clips.htm

Dog dancing is a cooperative endeavor between a highly trained dog and its handler. I can't dance nearly as well as many of these dogs.

Not totally different from or any less artistic than a solo tuba player "handling" his tuba, is it?