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Are the tides changing?

Postby mwlorrison893 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:35 pm

I've noticed a lot of people selling their B&S PT-6's recently. Are people going more towards the non-German made horns now?
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bort » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:17 pm

My guess... After time, it gets to be too much. Either financially wishing to have money i stead of fancy tuba, or it is a bigger tuba than they need. With only a handful of tuba jobs per year, and educations that demand pro level instruments, this seems bound to happen.

PS, I think the PT6 is a very fine tuba.
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby kmorgancraw » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:31 pm

mwlorrison893 wrote:I've noticed a lot of people selling their B&S PT-6's recently. Are people going more towards the non-German made horns now?


Oh really? How many is a lot? How many PT-6's are in circulation? After answering those questions in your head, what percentage of PT-6 owners are selling their PT-6's? Does this minuscule percentage represent a trend away from German made horns? :roll:
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bloke » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:51 pm

They aren't widely available in the USA, but - at a regional tuba shindig - I witnessed a (fine) young player laughing out loud after comparing a new Wisemann 900 to a new PT6-P, as Wisemann 900 tubas - in my experience - are consistently very good, as was that one.

Further, (though more-and-more of them are being made), I'm wondering if the "biggest tuba in the room" phenomenon (began c. 1980) is (very) slowly subsiding. [*]That having been said, a couple of them (finally) are pretty darn easy to play.

If there is such a thing as an "audition tuba" (because they SOUND BETTER to audition committees), I tend to wonder how the "sounds better" connection seems to be (once the "committee" obstacle has been jumped) lost with some players/users.

Though contradictory, please repeat the sentence above in bold here: [*].....

bloke "I would like to see someone revisit those so-called rotary BBb 'Hitler era' replica tubas, and experiment with that bugle until they end up with something that is easy to play in tune. Those (assuming great operators) sound magnificent on recordings."
Last edited by bloke on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby mwlorrison893 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:51 pm

kmorgancraw wrote:
mwlorrison893 wrote:I've noticed a lot of people selling their B&S PT-6's recently. Are people going more towards the non-German made horns now?


Oh really? How many is a lot? How many PT-6's are in circulation? After answering those questions in your head, what percentage of PT-6 owners are selling their PT-6's? Does this minuscule percentage represent a trend away from German made horns? :roll:



It was a question not needing a scientific response. More of a general conversation than needing to break out your calculator and surveys.
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bort » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:13 pm

Like the MW 197, Joe?
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bloke » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 pm

bort wrote:Like the MW 197, Joe?


yep.
Really fine players sound really nice (and not "foggy" at all) on those.
I'd like to see that model revisited and improved.

...shave the bore size down a bit...??
...experiment a with the taper of the bugle...??
...test the bell on other successful BBb bugles...??

http://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/en/instruments/bb-tubas/1972-2/

I'll check out the newest of the Harley Davidson flock, and remove my skepticism cap when doing so.
After all the Meinl-Weston 195/5P, Miraphone 98, and YCB-826S are - all three - quite accessible.

bloke "focused sound and easily accessible good intonation: the keys to the car"
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bort » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:03 pm

Alexander von Puttkamer sounds awesome on his 197, and clearly, i will not in my lifetime have his playing abilities. Would like to have that sound, though!

Joe, do you think the piston and rotary Fafner are more same than different? (sorry, not THAT question again, but kind of ... Sorry... )
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bloke » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:23 pm

bort wrote:Alexander von Puttkamer sounds awesome on his 197, and clearly, i will not in my lifetime have his playing abilities. Would like to have that sound, though!

Joe, do you think the piston and rotary Fafner are more same than different? (sorry, not THAT question again, but kind of ... Sorry... )


I do not enjoy playing the rotary Fafner, due to the very large (same as model 197) capillary bore.
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby TheGoyWonder » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:25 pm

No shame in playing a Hitler tuba!
We beat you, now we haz ur tubas.
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"B & S" PT-6 and PT-6P CC-Tubas

Postby Robert Tucci » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:09 pm

Here we have fine instruments. These were one of the few new tubas designed and developed after 1985 from the ground up. That is, not using available parts. I was in charge of this, a project that is documented elsewhere. Just two remarks:

1/Instruments with serial numbers 275500 or lower had many hand-made parts. Early production instruments were entirely hand-made. These have special tonal qualities.

2/The MR-P CC-tuba is based on the same concept as the PT-6 but is bigger. Both are very fine CC-tubas.

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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:47 pm

trend:

Very few manufactured tubas - anymore - are hand-made of sheet metal, yet pricing (adjusted for inflation) is roughly the same as they were when tubas were made that more time-consuming way.
Though many European tubas of old (many believe) offered a more-resonant/more-pleasing sound (made of more-even thickness material, tending to be thinner sheet metal), many of the newer models (again: many players seem to agree, and with some exceptions, as still there are a few "difficult intonation" models of tubas built today in Europe, but TO CLARIFY - none mentioned in this thread) are much easier to play in tune...

...so for about the same cost (again: inflation-adjusted), hydraulically-formed European tubas of recent manufacture ~tend~ to be easier to play in tune yet ~tend~ to not resonate as nicely as the old sheet-metal manufactured tubas.

I made some extremely broad generalizations, here (which obviously - as with all generalizations - are not always true), but they are more often true than not true.

~All~ of the above having been said, every single tuba that is made anywhere seems to be able to be sold to someone/somewhere. :D
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby Mark » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:51 pm

bloke wrote:If there is such a thing as an "audition tuba" (because they SOUND BETTER to audition committees), I tend to wonder how the "sounds better" connection seems to be (once the "committee" obstacle has been jumped) lost with some players/users.


For some people, one of the positives about the PT-6 is that it is small enough to be a good audition tuba and big enough to be a good concert tuba. Remember the PT-7?
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:04 pm

Mark wrote:
bloke wrote:If there is such a thing as an "audition tuba" (because they SOUND BETTER to audition committees), I tend to wonder how the "sounds better" connection seems to be (once the "committee" obstacle has been jumped) lost with some players/users.

of
For some people, one of the positives about the PT-6 is that it is small enough to be a good audition tuba and big enough to be a good concert tuba. Remember the PT-7?


I've bought/sold two or three PT-7/piston Neptune tubas...
The tuning is "funny" (different from the tuning quirks of the 2165/2265/6450 bugle), as it consisted of a larger bottom bow and bell "pasted on" to a PT-6 bugle. Some found/find those PT-7/piston Neptune tubas to be "difficult" (tuning-wise), but some analysis the challenges, stepping away from the 2165 tuning-problem-solving mindset, and embracing the intonation "lemons" - some of which could easily be made into "lemonade", I actually found the PT-7/piston Neptune tubas - in some ways - easier to play in-tune than the other B&S 6/4-size (again: 2165/2265/6450) bugle. I owned one of those piston Neptune's that - nearly - could pass for "demo" condition. I was really enamored with it at first, but (well...) the sound is just so monochrome (dark-darketty-darky-uber-darkosaurus), I just didn't think I could ever make the thing suit me...or that it would ever prove to be very suitable for meeting my particular needs.
All of the above blather having been said, I believe the best use of that bugle is to be hooked on to a PT-6 bottom bow and bell...(though Image I actually honestly prefer a cleaned-up/picked-over Wisemann knock-off to most of the genuine PT-6P tubas...but I may have heard that Buffet has bought this factory as well...??).
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby swillafew » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:04 am

...shave the bore size down a bit...??


You will be getting around to considering a GR51 (aka PT-605) by doing that. I have a very nice one if you want to go that way, listed for sale on this site.
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Re: Are the tides changing?

Postby apkujala » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:50 am

I got PT-6 as a small C tuba now as I bought this B&F Bb tuba copy of Nirschl. It's obviously one of handmade sheet-metal tubas mr. Bloke mentioned.

Sound on this big tuba is damn good even on me and I'm hoping to get some video done maybe this year when I have got used to the new tuning and free air. Couple times I've started laughing while playing since it feels so easy already.

I'm still on a bit of a mouthpiece quest tho. Saw someone recommend Klier 1-AA on different thread so might give it a shot.

And back to original question, pt-6 is very good tuba but I never liked mine as it was quite difficult to play and I have tried couple of them. And from pt6 I wanted to go bigger sound as I got an f-tuba already. Next tuba I might want/need would be small piston c or b. Was C before but I've noticed I have bit of a struggle with playing C and Bb back to back because of the fingerings.
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