Considering BBb again Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk
Forum rules
Reminder: "Go fund me" requests are not allowed and should be reported. All requests will be deleted.

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby GC » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:56 pm

Yes. Upon researching, the version I'm used to is a transposed version for Eb soprano cornet. My mistake.
Last edited by GC on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1914 Conn Monster Eb (my avatar), ca. 1905 Fillmore Bros 1/4-size Eb; Denis Wick 3CC, 2CC; Bach 42B trombone; Ibanez SR-506 6-string bass, MarkBass 102P combo bass amp
User avatar
GC
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:52 am
Location: NW Georgia

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bort » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:02 pm

Back to tuba... Thanks for the kind words and advice. Giving a serious look at the Hagen 496 now as well.
B&S 4198 (PT-7P), coming soon!
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 9256
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby ckalaher1 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am

After 20+ years of playing CC and F tubas, I very seriously tried some BBbs a few months ago. I spent a great deal of time with 2 separate GR55s (about 5 days with each), a bit of time on a 4/4 Hagen, and a bit of time on a 187. I really loved the sound that came out of the GR55 (one played easier and offered better pitch than the other). Good pitch and big low register. It wasn't the most nimble instrument, at least in my hands. The 187 was just a great, great instrument. Great intonation. VERY flexible instrument, VERY easy to play in every register. The 4/4 Hagen didn't play dissimilar to the 187, but had a darker and heavier sound. Like the 187, it just handled so easily all over the horn. Intonation was very good, maybe a spot better than the better of the two GR55s.

I ended up sticking with the CC, but all of those instruments made strong cases for themselves. I liked the sound of the GR55, I liked the playability of the 187.

The Hagen was the best of both worlds.

Good luck with it, Bort. All of those tubas offer a lot of bang for the buck, when one considers the price point of their CC brethren. Pack a lunch and go to Dillon Music.
ckalaher1
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:35 am

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bort » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:46 am

Thanks for the rundown! How did the 187 play in the low register? I'm a huge fan of the 188, except the low range is just not as open or easy as I would prefer it to be.

What is the CC that you stayed with?
B&S 4198 (PT-7P), coming soon!
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 9256
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby oedipoes » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:57 am

MaryAnn wrote:Why would anyone play this on an Eb trumpet (assuming I actually watched the right video?) The highest note is a high C and the lowest note is a middle C. It seems perfectly suited for a Bb trumpet.


Completely off-topic, but it was originally played on an E Major keyed trumpet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XkrFxPBLXQ
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby pjv » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:16 pm

I'm amazed no one mentioned the Miraphone 91. I tried one and it absolutely kicked aXX. I could zip around on it like a race car and still put out a sound which the listener physically felt. Intonation was spot on until low 2nd partial E (I didn't really explore it lower then that).
Or was this just a magic 91 out a herd of "meh" tubas?

I also would look into an Alex.
A Cerveny can also be a winner, but the saying "try before you buy" counts double for these horns. The modern ones I tried had the same kind of easy blowing characteristics an Alex has.
Is that a sheet metal thing?
User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby doublebuzzing » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:59 pm

I have always been somewhat puzzled why people want to learn BBb just to play particular pieces (like Prok. 5). I would argue if you had the same player play a 6/4 CC and then a 6/4 BBb, the majority of the tuba playing audience wouldn't be able to guess which was which. If you open that audience up to the general public, I would say less than 5% of them would be able to tell the difference. Maybe it's just a convenient excuse to convince the wife that you need another tuba.
doublebuzzing
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby Casca Grossa » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:41 pm

bloke wrote:Very candidly, my combined "symphony orchestras" per-service incomes rarely exceed the $1X,XXX annual level.
Were it (even) as high as $25K, I'd probably be looking to pick up a really nice BBb, and (likely) "the programming of Prokofiev 5" (were that to happen) would be the needed "excuse" to acquire one.

btw...
A friend was showing me (just today) some back-to-back Nirschl 6/4 CC vs. M-W 197 BBb excerpts played by a very fine player (someone who is mostly unknown in North America). The 197 "Hitler" tuba (to both of our sets of ears) offered the better sound, and (watching an actual player, rather than the repeated hearsay that I typed earlier in this thread) there was far LESS slide-pulling involved with the 197 compared to the Nirschl 6/4...

...and hey, check it out:
for uber-geeky players, the 197 has plenty of room on its mouthpipe tube to add a 5th and even a 6th rotor, as a 6th would offer options of amazingly well-in-tune B's and E's (which would render Ride of the Valkyries and Fountains of Rome even easier and more fun).

Image


Is said comparison on YouTube? If so could you pm the link?
Mack-a-clone 186 "Chairman Mao"
Blokepiece Imperial #2 Fair Dinkum Profundo Rim
Lignatone Eb "Charlene"
Blokepiece Solo
Why have 3 valves when you can have 6 and a main tuning slide kicker???
User avatar
Casca Grossa
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:36 am
Location: Reading, PA

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bort » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm

doublebuzzing wrote:I have always been somewhat puzzled why people want to learn BBb just to play particular pieces (like Prok. 5). I would argue if you had the same player play a 6/4 CC and then a 6/4 BBb, the majority of the tuba playing audience wouldn't be able to guess which was which. If you open that audience up to the general public, I would say less than 5% of them would be able to tell the difference. Maybe it's just a convenient excuse to convince the wife that you need another tuba.


For me, both in budget and room in my house, i am a one tuba person.

But for a working professional, sure, why not!
B&S 4198 (PT-7P), coming soon!
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 9256
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby Mark Finley » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:03 pm

I play BBb Tuba to teach lessons on, CC in the symphony, and Eb when I want to have fun. All three are radically different types of horns
User avatar
Mark Finley
Low Brass Teacher
Low Brass Teacher
 
Posts: 4812
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:08 am
Location: Arlington TX

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bloke » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:26 pm

doublebuzzing wrote:I have always been somewhat puzzled why people want to learn BBb just to play particular pieces (like Prok. 5). I would argue if you had the same player play a 6/4 CC and then a 6/4 BBb, the majority of the tuba playing audience wouldn't be able to guess which was which. If you open that audience up to the general public, I would say less than 5% of them would be able to tell the difference. Maybe it's just a convenient excuse to convince the wife that you need another tuba.


If I was on a committee, and - somehow - this guy were allowed to fool us by playing these excerpts back-to-back, and represented as two applicants, I know which one of him I would score higher, as there's certainly no guessing here.
Though he plays both tubas play equally well, the model 197 BBb resonance is undoubtedly clearer/less diffuse (and more pleasing to me, personally). ...and (if the resources are available) it's not a matter of what we can "get by with". If a tenor sax part stays within the alto sax range, sure - the part could be played on the alto sax...but that really isn't the point. Many Eb tuba players state that they can play everything on one instrument. That isn't the point, either. ...and - with the epically tired old argument re: BBb and CC tubas - it's really not even a matter of length... Rather, it's a matter of the particular tuba. That having been said, some of the really large BBb tubas sound better, are easier to play (and easier to play in tune) than some (most) of the really large CC tubas, as most of the really large CC tubas are (roughly or extremely closely) patterned after one particular instrument...a tuba that - via it's shape, and not it's length - harkens back to tubas of the 1930's that were ideal, sonically, for playing the tuba versions of double bass parts in wind-band transcriptions of orchestral works.

:arrow: https://www.facebook.com/javier.castanomedina/videos/vb.1207406864/10215397724955473/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab
:arrow: https://www.facebook.com/javier.castanomedina/videos/10215638289489436/
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 40688
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby iiipopes » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 am

The GR51 and GR55 are two of the best all-round BBb tubas out there if you want to take the next step in price up from a 186 or 187. When I got to try a GR51 some years ago, my immediate impression was the great scale, great intontation, and easy response, My recurring thought was that if I had been 20 years younger and a tuba major, I would have bought it right then and there. As it is, I went home with the lady I brought to the dance.
"Bessophone" w/ 2-piece Imperial Blokepiece,
Lexan 32.6 Modified Helleberg rim & modified .080 extender
Wessex BR115 w/ Wick Ultra SMB6
King Super 20 trumpet w/ Bach 3C/76
Fanned fret bass and electric guitars
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
 
Posts: 7726
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bloke » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:07 pm

agree or disagree...??

:The GR5X tubas, basically, are BBb "Tuono" tubas.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 40688
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby Casca Grossa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm

bloke wrote:
doublebuzzing wrote:I have always been somewhat puzzled why people want to learn BBb just to play particular pieces (like Prok. 5). I would argue if you had the same player play a 6/4 CC and then a 6/4 BBb, the majority of the tuba playing audience wouldn't be able to guess which was which. If you open that audience up to the general public, I would say less than 5% of them would be able to tell the difference. Maybe it's just a convenient excuse to convince the wife that you need another tuba.


If I was on a committee, and - somehow - this guy were allowed to fool us by playing these excerpts back-to-back, and represented as two applicants, I know which one of him I would score higher, as there's certainly no guessing here.
Though he plays both tubas play equally well, the model 197 BBb resonance is undoubtedly clearer/less diffuse (and more pleasing to me, personally). ...and (if the resources are available) it's not a matter of what we can "get by with". If a tenor sax part stays within the alto sax range, sure - the part could be played on the alto sax...but that really isn't the point. Many Eb tuba players state that they can play everything on one instrument. That isn't the point, either. ...and - with the epically tired old argument re: BBb and CC tubas - it's really not even a matter of length... Rather, it's a matter of the particular tuba. That having been said, some of the really large BBb tubas sound better, are easier to play (and easier to play in tune) than some (most) of the really large CC tubas, as most of the really large CC tubas are (roughly or extremely closely) patterned after one particular instrument...a tuba that - via it's shape, and not it's length - harkens back to tubas of the 1930's that were ideal, sonically, for playing the tuba versions of double bass parts in wind-band transcriptions of orchestral works.

:arrow: https://www.facebook.com/javier.castanomedina/videos/vb.1207406864/10215397724955473/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab
:arrow: https://www.facebook.com/javier.castanomedina/videos/10215638289489436/


I am inclined to believe he "won" his jobs with the BBb as his contrabass.
Mack-a-clone 186 "Chairman Mao"
Blokepiece Imperial #2 Fair Dinkum Profundo Rim
Lignatone Eb "Charlene"
Blokepiece Solo
Why have 3 valves when you can have 6 and a main tuning slide kicker???
User avatar
Casca Grossa
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:36 am
Location: Reading, PA

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby MN_TimTuba » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:29 pm

$8,000 budget? You're in luck with Horn Guys - https://www.hornguys.com/products/mirap ... y-bbb-tuba
Close-out special. Maybe your stars have just aligned.
MN_Tim

Holton BBb 345
72 Sno Jet 440SST
User avatar
MN_TimTuba
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Wadena, MN

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby Stryk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:31 pm

Just one world? Be adventurous, change between BBb and C. I have been working on that for 3 years and am just now getting fairly comfortable with BBb, especially in keys with over 3 sharps. Accidentals still throw me if there are a lot of them in a row.
Terry Stryker

Old, ugly horns that play really, really well.
User avatar
Stryk
Retired Educator
Retired Educator
 
Posts: 2039
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:55 pm
Location: Panama City, Florida

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby bloke » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:17 pm

Different things are stumbling blocks for different players.

For me (moving from one instrument to the next), it's never "fingerings" or "reading" (except for Eb, as I ~can~ read-and-play Eb, but - mostly, for the last forty years - I have only ~played~ Eb, and have ~not~ read-and-played Eb very much) that are the stumbling blocks.

Rather, for me it's completely remembering the tuning quirks of individual tubas (that I own...if I've not played a particular tuba in a few months)...

...so if a particular tuba has collected dust (say, the Buescher C helicon that most all here have seen) I need to pick it up, warm it up, and play several-or-many scales to remind myself of fingerings or pulls prior to taking it to a gig.

bloke "Every time I revisit that helicon, I think, "Dang this is a great instrument...so why don't I use it more often?"
Last edited by bloke on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 40688
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby binlove » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:36 pm

MN_TimTuba wrote:$8,000 budget? You're in luck with Horn Guys - https://www.hornguys.com/products/mirap ... y-bbb-tuba" target="_blank
Close-out special. Maybe your stars have just aligned.


Seriously, that’s a GREAT tuba!
User avatar
binlove
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:05 am

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby the elephant » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:06 pm

bloke wrote:... for me it's completely remembering the tuning quirks of individual tubas...


This.

Also, for me, I used to use three different CC tubas at work. (I was in a bit of a transitional period, using a lot of different horns until one of them clicked for me.)

One had 4 valves. One had a flat M2 5th. One had a quarter step 5th. I could never keep fingerings straight in the low registers of these horns. I would flat out miss pitches in rehearsals at times. At one point I thought I would keep all three horns as they were all excellent for different things. I thought I could fix the issue by changing them so all three had the standard flat M2. (Leave one alone, lengthen one, add a valve to the other.)

I got fed up and sold all three instead and bought what I wanted in the first place.
Image
WARNING: Never post your tuba's serial number without an XX at the end. This throws the crooks off the scent. True story.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 13602
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Considering BBb again

Postby toobagrowl » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:52 pm



That guy sounds great on both tubas. The M-W 197 BBb has a noticeably denser/darker, more focused/compact sound; whereas the NirschlYork CC has a wider/more diffuse sound with more overtones. I'm usually an advocate of German rotary contrabass tubas in orchestra because I think their 'teutonic' sound color blends well, yet also projects better than York-style tubas. IMO, York-style tubas actually work better in bands and chamber (quintet) ensembles :idea:
All comes down to personal preference.
toobagrowl
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1144
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:12 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Eastman, Google Adsense [Bot], Kutz and 29 guests