Considering BBb again

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by bort »

Exactly. I forget what I saw in Berlin, but in NY it was Bruckner 9. About half on the 197 and half on a B&S F tuba. All around, an awesome concert.
toobagrowl
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1525
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:12 pm
Location: USA

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by toobagrowl »

bort wrote:
I've had this clip bookmarked forever. Start around 1:33 if you want to get right to it.

I've seen that clip multiple times; it's great :!: The meaty tuba chords actually start soon after 1:00 in.

Like I said, that tuba makes a noticeably denser/darker and more focused sound than the 6/4 York-a-phones. I think the M-W 197 BBb is about as 'Kaiser' as a tuba gets :!:

There were some amazing clips of Walter Hilgers years ago in the VPO on a reconditioned real-deal B&F Kaiser BBb. Don't think those clips are still around though.

Someone talked about a 'buzziness' in a tuba sound, or what I call 'grainyness'. It is a sound that is somewhat 'harsher/less smooth' up close. But in the context of a large ensemble out in the audience, it comes out as a 'warm growl'. In my experience: grainyness + dense richness = velvety warm growl out in the audience. And a fat mellow, diffuse sound that is not as dense, yet sounds 'prettier' up close tends to get 'lost' within the string basses, low WWs, etc and not project enough or have a distinctive enough sound. That said, I like the York-style sound for bands and chamber groups. It's great to have such a huge variety of tubas :tuba:
DouglasJB
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by DouglasJB »

For those who cant,see the video, can a link be posted?
User avatar
LCTuba89
bugler
bugler
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:30 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by LCTuba89 »

I think the entire bell stack has more to with the sound than anything else. I seem to notice that old Miraphone 186s with the small bell flare and thin sheet metal project a lot more overtones and overblow easier in the lower register than the modern 186s. Could be other factors but the newer 186s have larger bell flares and thicker sheet metal. A modern King 2341 even though its 4/4 horn has pretty diffuse sound until you try to overblow it. My guess is the thick sheet metal and huge bell flare? A lot of people say upright bell Conn 2XJ tubas sound VERY diffused with a lot of ambient presence, again those horns have 24" bells.

Smaller Bell Flare = More focused and projected tone?

Larger Bell Flare = More diffused and broad tone?

This is all speculation, but it's just observations I've made over the years.
Melton 2155R 5/4 CC Tuba
Conn International Rotary 4/4 BBb Tuba
User avatar
LCTuba89
bugler
bugler
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:30 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by LCTuba89 »

toobagrowl wrote: Someone talked about a 'buzziness' in a tuba sound, or what I call 'grainyness'. It is a sound that is somewhat 'harsher/less smooth' up close. But in the context of a large ensemble out in the audience, it comes out as a 'warm growl'. In my experience: grainyness + dense richness = velvety warm growl out in the audience. And a fat mellow, diffuse sound that is not as dense, yet sounds 'prettier' up close tends to get 'lost' within the string basses, low WWs, etc and not project enough or have a distinctive enough sound. That said, I like the York-style sound for bands and chamber groups. It's great to have such a huge variety of tubas :tuba:
I think the reason why orchestra conductors love the sound of the old Alex 163 is that it has that dark-dense tone that can be projected with plenty of burn if needed. Of course, playing one is different because they tend to have questionable intonation problems. I've never played one personally but I have played a MW 2155R for many years and it's essentially MW's copy of the 163. The tone is dark and dense and that low register projects like a mofo! It too has intonation problems though....

I too feel that the York-style 6/4 tubas just sound better in a band context in my opinion. They blend better with the group and don't stand out so much while putting a solid foundation under the group. I play one myself and can tell you that I would never use one in an orchestra setting, just doesn't easily burn. The pros can do it well, but they have to really try hard to get those tubas to overblow too.
Melton 2155R 5/4 CC Tuba
Conn International Rotary 4/4 BBb Tuba
User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by pjv »

163 is a 4/4ish tuba, and has playing characteristics similar to many tubas of this size. Being an Alex it just plays 10x easier (in my opinion). THAT might have something to do with the sheet metal. I'll let the experts chime in on that theory.

I've played four 163 BBb's (one I own) of various lineages and I question what you consider questionable intonation.

4 partial D and Db were in all cases almost unmanageable played open and 2nd (respectfully). Played 12 & 23 you're back in the ball game.
All the other notes play brainlessly in-tune.
WagnerRing
bugler
bugler
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:02 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by WagnerRing »

I had the opportunity to play the Miraphone Hagen 496, MW 195/5P, MW 195 and GR55 at the US Army Tuba Workshop. The 496 in particular was excellent. The 496 had a wonderful ease of play, felt very nimble, air efficient, fast response, and had a beautiful resonant well-centered tone. I kept going back to the 496 as I tried other horns, and it continued to impress. Very responsive and easy to play.
Last edited by WagnerRing on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PlayTheTuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by PlayTheTuba »

I personally really like the King 2341/Eastman 534 (the Eastman is better), Kanstul 33t, the Miraphone 1291/191/slant rotor 289, hagens, b&S GR51 and GR55. If I was able to afford a tuba it would between the 33t, B&S BBb's or the Miraphone 289. Although I actually like the 1291 more than the 289, I would rather own the 289. So for rotary tubas that I have tried I'd say get a B&S or a Miraphone. I think you'll be very happy with the any of the B&S or Miraphones BBb's.
MoCoTubaBone
lurker
lurker
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:03 pm
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by MoCoTubaBone »

Is there a list anywhere of all currently manufactured 5-Valve BBb tubas? I am considering the 1291 for its 5 valves but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything else out there. Also, any opinions on the BBb 1291 would be appreciated. Thanks.
User avatar
Steve Marcus
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1842
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:18 am
Location: Chicago area
Contact:

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by Steve Marcus »

[quote="bloke”]
for uber-geeky players, the 197 has plenty of room on its mouthpipe tube to add a 5th and even a 6th rotor, as a 6th would offer options of amazingly well-in-tune B's and E's (which would render Ride of the Valkyries and Fountains of Rome even easier and more fun).

Image[/quote]

Years ago, the MW website listed a model 198 as a 5-valve 197. So it can certainly be done, just as Miraphone can accept a special order for a 5-valve Hagen 495, 496, or 497.
Steve Marcus
http://www.facebook.com/steve.marcus.88
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia
User avatar
cjk
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by cjk »

The 198 had the fifth valve dependent on the 4th.

The rotor Fafner has an optional dependent 5th rotor in the fourth valve slide.
Jess Haney
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by Jess Haney »

5 valve Bb horns

Miraphone
Seigfried
1291
186
ect

Meinl
195 5p

Willson
3100

Rudy Meinl
special order on most models

Big Mouth Brass
all models as dependant 5th insode the 4th tubing

Wessex
all front action models

Gronitz
PBK

Jinbao
lots of models

and problable 10 models that someone will put up.
Brass Band Tacoma
Puget Brass
Willson BBb 3100 FA5
Willson Eb 3400 FA5

..and a miriad of other JUNK not worth mentioning.
MoCoTubaBone
lurker
lurker
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:03 pm
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by MoCoTubaBone »

Very helpful Jess. Much appreciated.
User avatar
bububassboner
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:16 am
Location: Sembach, Germany

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by bububassboner »

This may be a long post that touches on a few subjects, yet this may help the OP in his choice.

So I play all four keys of tuba regularly and understand the struggle of picking between BBb and CC. Though people say BBb and CC are similar I would argue that they aren't and have very different uses. Figuring out your uses and needs is the important part.

STRONG OPINION WARNING! I personally view BBb and F tuba as specialty tubas while I view CC and Eb tubas as multi purpose tubas. In regards to this thread, a BBb tuba of the same size as a CC tuba will always have a better low end and a denser, heavier sound. Now, to add to this I only use 6/4 BBb tubas. When it comes to large heavy band or orchestra pieces a 6/4 BBb has always out performed the 6/4 CC. I played a 6/4 CC daily for almost a decade and as soon as I finished building my York 6/4 BBb I immediately switched for the large work. It just made getting that super dense sound easier, plus the low end was just less work, and I'm all about making tuba playing easy.

Now if I'm not wanting that heavy thick sound I immediately switch to CC. The Cc tuba is just more agile and has more of that upper overtone to the sound. This is why I don't play smaller BBb tubas. CC is more nimble, so why would I work harder playing something like brass quintet on a BBb? The different keys of tubas have different strengths and weaknesses. In a perfect world we would have a few in all the keys and play what makes the music easier to sound good on.

So for the OP, I wouldn't recommend only owning a BBb tuba UNLESS you ONLY play large orchestra/band music and I'd recommend a pretty large BBb tuba. If you play more small group music you'll miss the agility of the CC pretty quickly.

Feel free to message me if you want to talk more in depth about this.
Big tubas
Little tubas
Army Strong
Go Ducks!
User avatar
kontrabasstuba
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:40 am
Location: Germany

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by kontrabasstuba »

Hello together,
I agree with Chuck.
Every music has its own style, character and temper. Why not swith to all keyes. I also play all types of tubas. I don't think about the fingerings in F, Eb, Cc or Bb. I choose often .
In germany are the Eb and Cc it so popular.
But both tubas has the own character... I like it a lot...

The others discuss a lot of GR51 or GR55.
I do not know if everyone knows that the GR51 is based on a Bohland and Fuchs 4/4 Tuba.
Walter Hilgers want to made a copy of this amazing beauty. But B&S made it not in the long version. The result is the GR51.
I play one of the original 6/4 B&F.
This sound is amazing...
Last edited by kontrabasstuba on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by bort »

kontrabasstuba wrote:The others discuss a lot of GR51 or GR55.
I do not know if everyone knows that the GR51 is based on a Bohland and Fuchs 6/4 Tuba.
Interesting, and not what I have heard...

My understanding, from a very trusted source, is that the GR-51 was based on the York tuba design, but in a rotary version (GR = Grand Rapids).

The Meinl-Weston 197 was the reincarnation of the B&F Kaiser tuba... right?
User avatar
kontrabasstuba
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:40 am
Location: Germany

Re: Considering BBb again

Post by kontrabasstuba »

That is what i not hear before....
my information is also from a trusted source.

Yes. The Bohland and Fuchs are the big mystery of the Kaisers... :tuba:
Post Reply