stupid (but not a troll) snowy evening thoughts...Eb to D

[Bill B]

I once mentioned the possibility of of a D tuba to a trumpet player friend of mine, who told me that "you really don't want one". Apparently, they give trumpet players their share of problems. I could also see their use for symphonic literature originally intended for an F tuba , but where the presence required in a modern orchestra is beyond that of an F, but where a big contrabass sound is really not wanted either. There is no reason, that an additional set of slides couldn't work, but most likely the intonation would be interesting.

[Heliconer]

Tony Clements has a Gronitz D Tuba, though I'm not sure he has had much chance to use it.

I have had this same thought bloke, although, mine was more along the lines of cutting a 184 CC.

[swillafew]

Ivan Hammond had a D tuba, handmade as far as I knew, and while I took lessons from him I never saw it.

[hup_d_dup]

Has anyone ever made a pair of piggyback slides, pulled out the other four slides the appropriate amounts, and tested a compensating Eb tuba with the open tuning lowered to D ?

What would be the advantage of doing this on a compensating instrument rather than just any old Eb (assuming you are not doing this exclusively for low register work)?

Hup

[Donn]

That's great - I'd been reading that they have too-short tuning slides, which I guess might have posed a problem here. Cf compensating for the compensating system.

[funkcicle]

only semi-related, but back in the 1970s Roger Bobo had a Miraphone 184 CC cut down to D and fitted with a Besson Eb bell (not in that order).

http://www.rogerbobo.com/instruments/d_tuba.shtml" target="_blank

[PlayTheTuba]

I have a low pitch Salvation Army 3 + 1 non-comp Eb tuba that I made plastic tubing to play in the key of D natural since I didn't cut the tuba to play in Eb. With alternate fingerings the intonation can be considered okay. But with normal fingerings it is not very in tune with itself. However I am not sure if the tuba itself has intonation problems. I believe that it would be very similar to a Besson Eb bugle and I think I read somewhere that Besson made the tubas for the Salvation Army. Hope that helps. I can try posting a picture if you want to see it.

[imperialbari]

Many years ago, before having other tubas, I refitted a Denis Wick practise mute to replace the bell of my Conn 26K. That is: I cut off the narrowest end off and wound the new end with some fabric to keep the air from leaking around the body collar.

The pitch went up to E. Back then I had very easy access to brass tubing, so I made an insert to make the narrow and short male branch of the main tuning slide longer. The longer and larger bore branch was long enough for the pull back to Eb. I had ideas about using the insert to retune the intact set-up, with the bell, to D for a certain purpose, but other projects took higher priority.

I do not belong to those making a permanent pull of the 3rd compensating loop on any of my compensators in F, Eb, and BBb. I use the option of using 3 as an alternative to 12 on all of my instruments, so I don’t want 3 being excessively flat. Neither when when used in combination with the shift valve of the compensators. And I don’t want the 23 combination going flat, when it is a leading note.

One workaround to avoid the sharp fingering of 134 on compensators has for me been about pulling the very long 3rd slide to let it lower the instrument a major third. The 3rd compensating loop was pulled accordingly. The new fingering of 234 is not perfect, pitchwise, but it is more manageable than the original fingering of 124.

My first brass tutoring book issued by the Christian boys’ organisation of my then band, had a bass clef section, which had fingering tables for the now common 4 pitches of tubas plus for tubas in Db. Much later I have wondered whether there ever were any tubas built with the intended pitch of Db, or whether the Db tubas obviously in circulation really were CC tubas built for the old Bohemian band pitch of A=466Hz. Un-modified BBb tubas built for the same pitch would be perceived as tubas in B natural in the context of modern pitch. Not a tuba, but my very old Zelenka of Praha flugelhorn
sounds in B natural today.

The main problem with any of the modifications away from common pitches and valve layouts is that reading the music becomes less intuitive. Like with the scordatura on the violin the modifications solve some special problems, but they hardly will catch on for mainstream music making.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

No, not in the range above the one involving the 4th (the shift) valve. But low F# goes flat, which is not desirable in G major or in G minor.

I understand the wish for a long 3rd comp slide. Would use it myself to solve specific situations. But for me the real solution is not a long 3rd comp slide alone, rather two alternative 3rd comp slides: the one known from the original Blaikley system and the longer one.

Klaus

[PlayTheTuba]

I made an imgur album let me know if everyone can see it. The first image is with the slides all in. The other images I adjusted the slides to how I play the tuba. I only pull the first and fourth valve slides when playing in D. Two close ups of the main tuning slide and the Salvation Army logo. https://imgur.com/a/TIk3T" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

The photos work fine!

To my knowledge British LP equalls A=440Hz, so I tend to wonder why the 3rd slide needs no pull, when the tuba is lowered to D?

Klaus

[PlayTheTuba]

For some reason when using the 23 combo Bb below the staff and Bb in the staff plays 20 cents flat. Using 23 for F right below the staff is 20 cents sharp. When it isn't cold in the house it is better to use just 3 for F# even though it is on the flat side. I believe the normal fingerings for E in the staff is 1 and F in the staff is 2 but both of them play below 20 cents flat. However using 13 for E and 23 for F in the staff seems to be in tune. I also use 13 for A below the staff since I have 4 pulled. If whatever I typed doesn't make any sense I will try to reword it. I think since this tuba isn't compensated they may have built it with a longer than normal 3rd valve. Might be hard to see in the pictures but there is a flat spot just below downward 90 degree bend, not sure if that affects anything. The only other reason I can think of is the tuba is not in tune with itself, seeing as when I bought it looks like no one has ever touched in a long time. I believe this tuba was built around the 1930's, I am not sure if brass on the inside the valve knuckles that is not smooth and pitted affects the pitch. Here are pictures of how it looked like when I bought it from Ebay. https://imgur.com/a/ueozr" target="_blank
I use a Denis Wick 2 mouthpiece and recently made an adapter for my pt 48. The pt 48 makes the whole tuba play flatter but if the room is warm enough it has the same exact pitch tendencies. I play with the Wick 2 normally. I might be able to come to the army band conference, I can try to bring the tuba with me and play it in front of a tuner for everyone.

[imperialbari]

The pitch tendencies told of are known from many other instruments also. And your refingerings are the same that I use with some 3-valve instruments.

The longer valve slides were common on 3-valve instruments. Only I would have expected them being of a truer length on a 4-valve instrument.

When I took part in the first European Championships with Copenhagen Brass Band back in 1978 in London, I went to a local brass repair shop (name long forgotten) The repairman happened to be the former foreman or supervisor of the production at the already then defunct Salvation Army brass instruments factory. He rattled off which of their models had been good and which had been impossibly bad in matters of intonation. Don’t remember that list either, but the point was that their designs were very uneven, so your tuba may have been funny right out of the factory.

Klaus

[Bob Kolada]

I think J.C. has one built out of a King Eb.