My thoughts on the whole CC vs BBb enigma

[TheTuba]

Hi Tubenetters,

(ROOKIE WARNING) Please don't smash me to the ground on this!

I recently had the opportunity to go to a friends house and play on their 4/4 CC tuba while they played/watched my 4/4 BBb tuba (note that I have not played any sizes above 4/4, so bear with me)(also not that both of them were miraphones) . The first thing I noticed that the tone immediately changed to a more "brighter" tone with my current embrochure. After experimenting, I can make a somewhat darker tone by opening my mouth as big as it can go (basically thinking of TWO eggs inside my mouth). What really surprised me was how wonky the tuning was. When I usually change to another tuba at my school, It basically takes me an hour to tune it to my preferences. While I know that the tuba is two feet shorter, with other major factors, After an hour and a half, It STILL was not there yet (this is most likely me). My friend than showed me how to pull out and in on the first tuning slide , which I've seen professionals do, but never had the need to on my BBb since I'm usually only +/-10 cents from the pitch. After playing a little bit more, I said thank you and I left with a whole new sense of purpose to post this for Rookies like me on Tube net.

Thanks for Reading!
-Raghul

[Ace]

You state that you spent an hour or so working on the tuning? I don't want to be unkind, but as you suggest in your message I suspect most of the problem is you, not the instrument.

Ace

[TubaDrummer]

If you dont have experience on CC tuba i dont think you can get a good feel of any horn in a couple hours. When i switched to my CC, i had not played a CC before and it took a few weeks before i felt comfortable playing it then the pitches started to fall in place. I never got into F tuba but the few times I've played F tubas they seemed horribly out of tune and very uncomfortable to play. I know it was me because the horns were owned and used by very good players. You will need more time to explore a tuba in a different key. Today there are many good BBb tubas and if you have one that you feel you can play as nimble as a good CC tuba and you're getting the sound and intonation you want then go for it!

[Ken Crawford]

This is a ridiculously talked to death topic...but I'll take a swing at the horse anyway... I was originally a euphonium player, took many years off and was reincarnated as a tuba player. I told myself there is no way I wanted to learn any new fingerings, so I played BBb tuba for several years. I played many different BBb tubas of various makes and sizes. I had struggles hitting notes cleanly, F# and G below the staff in particular. It didn't matter the instrument, it happened on all BBb tubas. Extraordinarily annoying and I thought that I must be cursed. It wasn't an air issue, or an air-stream issue or anything like that. I picked up CC tuba and like a light switch, literally, problem eliminated. The double buzz didn't migrate to Ab and A, my attacks are clean, it is gone and I thank the tubas gods for CC tuba. Your mileage may most certainly vary.

[MaryAnn]

As far as intonation being the player and not the instrument....not necessarily so. When play-testing both horns and euphoniums, I found examples that were so incredibly wonky that I really could not get certain notes in tune by lipping, without jumping partials. Some instruments are just out of tune with themselves, and if simple work-arounds can't be found, they should be rejected. My rule is....if i can't get it in tune without slide pulling, it is too out of tune for me to bother with. Slide pulling is for resonance, not intonation. YMMV.

[Bnich93]

In my somewhat limited experience I have noticed that most intonation issues are down to players not compensating for known problematic partials, improperly cared for or poorly made instruments, and level of ability. I have played quite a few BBb and CC tubas with hardly any noticeable intonation flaws, as well as instruments of every type that are terrible in that aspect. However, i reckon that a player of significant caliber could pick up my HN White American Standard and play it in tune with an ensemble. For example, my PT-4(recently sold) could be played perfectly(nearly) in tune on every note with one or two alternate fingerings and no slide pulling. If somebody else were to pick up the horn not having spent the last 6 years playing it then they may find that they are having intonation issues because they have not put in enough time to know that top space G can be lowered by played it with 125. On the other hand a German F horn can be VERY problematic when it comes to intonation and has to be played like a tuba and a trombone at the same time with all the slide pulling.

I guess what I'm saying is: don't necessarily blame the equipment for tuning issues, sit down with a tuner and a drone to get to know how that particular horn should be played in order to be in tune.

[toobagrowl]

When it comes to tuba intonation, I can 'deal with' a few squirrelly pitches as long as they are correctable by moderate lipping, a slide pull or alternate fingering. Response plays a role in intonation too. If the tuba has a good/easy response, those problematic pitches are easier to deal with.

As far as BBb vs. CC, personal preference I guess if you take something like an Alex 163 BBb and compare it with the CC version you would notice some differences. Same thing with the Miraphone 186s, Touno & GR-55, etc. The only real way of doing a fair comparison is comparing similar/same models in both pitches. In my experience, the BBb version of the same models in CC tends to sound/play slightly more 'smooth & broad' with better legato; whereas the CC version tends to respond quicker and sound slightly louder & more 'articulated'

[barry grrr-ero]

I've played BBb for many years, and I've played CC for many years. In my opinion, most 'decent' BBb tubas play far better in-tune than the majority of CC tubas. If you're a band player with no real intention of doing lots of symphony orchestra or brass quintet work, you might want to consider sticking with BBb tuba. That said, I do use a CC tuba because I like the quicker response and bigger projection (and dynamic range) I get on the B&S "Neptune". However, it's a challenge to play well in tune: lots of slide pulling and some alternate fingerings. Trust me, you're not alone. It takes time to work out slide pulling and alternate fingerings. Trying different mouthpieces may help as well.

For CC tubas, try not to use huge mouthpieces that you can better get away with on BBb tubas. Try, instead, to use something more narrow and deep (Helleberg style), or something that's wide but also a tad on the shallow side (or pear shaped bowl - Geib style). That will help to get your octave C's to better match, in terms of pitch. Then go from there. No tuba is 'perfect' in terms of pitch. It's all a comprise to some degree.

[Jay Bertolet]

2 things stick out to me with this iteration of the traditional discussion:

1) The player was not used to playing CC tuba.

2) The player mentioned opening his embouchure very wide to get the type of sound he wanted.

Both of those things would/could cause real headaches in intonation. My experience has been that part of the process of playing an instrument involves figuring out what is characteristic for that tuba. For example, if you have a 3/4 tuba in your hands and you're trying to make it sound like a 6/4 tuba, you're probably going to have some major intonation issues no matter how good you are. These instruments are designed with certain parameters assumed and if you go outside those, you're probably introducing random elements to the process that may or may not have a positive effect. In my own teaching, I have found that opening the embouchure very wide leads to some real problems in intonation especially in the lower ranges. Playing on the horn with a "normal approach" gives you a better chance at seeing the horn for what it is.

Also, every horn I've ever owned has a learning period for me where I learn how the horn responds, what it can and can't do, and where the intonation problems may lie. My experience has been that, initially, I have many alternate fingerings and slide pulling options required to play anything in tune on the horn. But over time, it seems like I adjust to those problems and eventually don't need to address them. It seems like I learn, as the player, how to play the horn such that the intonation deficiencies either lessen or go away completely. That process can take weeks, sometimes years. I doubt anyone could do it in an hour.

Lastly, it bears mentioning that equipment used with the tuba (mouthpiece) affects the overall product as well. The OP doesn't really mention it so I'm left to imagine that he used his regular mouthpiece with the CC tuba that he tried. That may or may not be a good match. You can't just plug any old mouthpiece into every horn and expect to get the best performance. The process of determining the right combination of player, mouthpiece, and horn can take a very long time to achieve, if at all. That process is also ongoing as new mouthpieces are produced and new playing methods discovered.

Sadly, trial and error is really the only reliable solution to these issues. It doesn't matter how good or bad a player you are, everybody works on this stuff and they all are searching for the same answers to those questions. Maybe the smartest thing you can do is know that this task is in front of you and make decisions that keep you moving in precisely the right direction with as few detours into the weeds as possible. The quicker you get to that point, the more enjoyable the overall experience will be.