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Random question: why are valves in whole step, half step, 1 1/2 step order?
Does it ever vary?
I thought maybe the idea was putting the more frequently used whole step under a stronger finger
A trumpet playing friend thinks its so you can run the longer tubing for first and third along the main tubing of the trumpet or similar horn.

(and of course... does any other computer geek here wish trombones called their "slide all the way up" The Zeroeth position, instead of first? It would make the mental math SO much easier )

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I heard somewhere that it stems from how necessary each valve is. The earliest drum and bugle corps had no valves. After some period of time, a whole step change valve was allowed to be added, which shortly was amended to become a regular valve. When you think about an instruments overtone series, a whole step valve is the most practical addition to fill in the "missing" notes. After that, a half step valve fills in the rest of the missing notes, especially when playing traditional "bugles in G."

To go further, I've always wondered why the third valve was universally made a step and a half. The French "two step" works better, but not so well that I'll be converting all my horns haha

So is a french 3rd valve like a 4th valve in - uh- whatever the name of the system I'm used to is?

There was an old German tuba on that auction site about a year ago where the first and second valves were 'flipped' -- the first valve was a half-step; second valve a whole-step. And many of those really old German/Czech tubas had a 4th valve equal to valves 2+3. A half-step higher than the standard 4th valve

Certain instruments in the 19th C had the first valve a half step and the second valve a full step...it was known as 'Catholic Fingerings'...
Mark

kirkjerk wrote:Random question: why are valves in whole step, half step, 1 1/2 step order?
Does it ever vary?
I thought maybe the idea was putting the more frequently used whole step under a stronger finger
A trumpet playing friend thinks its so you can run the longer tubing for first and third along the main tubing of the trumpet or similar horn.

(and of course... does any other computer geek here wish trombones called their "slide all the way up" The Zeroeth position, instead of first? It would make the mental math SO much easier )

Your trumpet friend is right.

On a single F-horn try imagining the semitone being in the 1st valve and the whole step in the 2nd. You would have to pull the 2nd slide before you could drain the 1st slide.

Klaus

bloke wrote:That fingering pattern is nearly universal across woodwinds and brass:

nothing: C
middle finger: B
first finger: Bb
first two fingers: A
.

Believe it or not, this was part of the method I used to teach myself how to play the Bb bass saxophone (which I approach as a non-transposing bass clef instrument).

Thinking of my B flat tuba fingerings, the right hand went something like this (transposed pitch in parentheses):

Concert F (G) = open

Concert E (F#) = 2nd finger

Concert Eb (F) = 1st finger

Concert D (E) = 1 + 2

In the left hand:

Concert G (A) = 1 + 2

In both hands:

Concert Ab (Bb) = 1st finger

Since the saxophone is overblown at the octave, this method conveniently applies to both registers.

(obviously, this method doesn't work for all pitches, but 50% of them was a good start).

I would expect that early builders started with whatever interval they thought would help the horn the most; the second then added as needed, and so on. The drum corp people can live with 2, trumpet players 3, euphoniums 4 (the ones that play trombone grabbed the idea of the 4th), tubas depends on the budget and the imagination.

Looking at google images I saw a couple of trumpets with the fingering system in question, but one looked to be Berliner valves with slide tubing that went straight down, and the other was a rotor trumpet with tubing that did the same. I wonder if the reason is simply to keep the shortest tubing on trumpet valves in the middle with the longer tubing on the sides. After all, a lot of brass design seems to trickle down from trumpet design.