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I wanted to ask you contra experts if the old GG contra was the same height than the current BBb. I know the tubing length is different.

Hank74

Given the same style from the same manufacturer, they're the same height. All the extra tubing is added to the smaller pipes and not the outer body.

If you look at Kanstul's site, you'll see a different layout between the BBb and GG versions going from the 2nd and 3rd outer branches.

Some are different, though. The King K90 is noticeably taller (bell-to-bow, or "stem to stern", as it were) than the BBb marching tuba that King makes these days.

Leland, can you guess as to how tall were the K-90 contra. Something higher than 42 inches, 43?

Hank74

Hmm...

It's about as tall as the current Kanstul 5/4 horns. So yes, 42" sounds right, give or take an inch or two.

And the bell diameter is about 17 inches.

Hank74

Nah -- the bell on my K90 is 19" across.

Leland, it seems we are doing our own "pm" here on this public board. But I wanted to ask your opinion about the contra valve position.

Which do you prefer, to have the valves on the side as your's is on the K-90, or something like on a convertable tuba that can also be used as a sitdown concert tuba?

Hank

Definitely "on the side" as on marching-only instruments. It's much more natural, and it's closer to being like the hand position on a trumpet.

the elephant wrote:Personally, I would like to see a side-by-side shot of a K-90, 5/4 Kanstul GG, and a DEG SMB GG.

Leland?????

Ain't that K90 a beaut? Purpose-built, nothing extra to get in the way.

I'll work on finding a way to get those three models in one shot. It'll have to be a senior corps event, though -- there are still a bunch of K90's floating around DCA, often with 3-valve conversions. A few have the big DEGs, and just as few have the big Kanstuls.

the elephant wrote:Thomas Dodd is one of our contras and is coming along nicely.

Now, you're just saying that because you know I read this board...

Seriousely, thanks. I might disagree, but thanks.

We are actually looking at a set of 5 DEG SMB's that are for sale right now: $5K takes the lot; 3 valve GG's in very nice shape.

That would solve a lot of our music problems...
But then no more arrangment for you? Or would you still rewrite them to be better?

BTW – Look for both Thomas and me in Scranton! (Jackson Generals)

Leland and other contra experts: Do you have any suggestions as to what mouthpiece one should use on the GG contra like the K-90.

Hank

Hank74 wrote:Leland and other contra experts: Do you have any suggestions as to what mouthpiece one should use on the GG contra like the K-90.

Big...
What ever you'd use for a big BBb horn.

Wade's using a Helleberg. As am I, and the 3rd player uses a S-H 2.

I'm actually using a Kellyberg as it's more comfortable. I cannot tell the difference in it an the Conn/UMI. Come performance time, I might use the Conn. If I'm the olnly one with a blue mpc., I might go metal just to match. Or I might notice a differnce in the sound by then.

I could alway get out the Deck...

back in the day when I marched, they made us use helleburgs on the Kanstul GG's. From what wayne told us, when they designed the horns they used a helleburg as the mouthpiece. So we used it. Ziggy also designed the K90, so maybe the same would be true.

BD used Helleburgs from the 80's on. I don't know why, but they al;ways worked. Now they use Dynasty ME1's.

Mark

I tried using my PT50 on my King, a pre-wraparound-leadpipe Kanstul, and a big DEG, and none of them played quite right. It even accentuated the intonation problems already inherent in the big DEG horns.

I went back to the regular Conn Helleberg, and everything worked right.

Zig Kanstul did not design the K90, however. His concept was remarkably similar to what ended up in the 3-valve Kanstul contras, but the K90 was designed by another King/Conn/Olds designer. The King and Kanstul contras are very different instruments.

I know, I had posted on this very Tubenet BBS some time ago that Zig had designed the K90, but I had been corrected since then. I'm still trying to find the story that got posted online somewhere...

Aha!
http://tinyurl.com/bfqlr

I'm probably going to have my K90 put in my will to be buried alongside me.. lol

Leland,

I heard from one of the Spirit of Atlanta guys that got the first round og the K90's that Zig played a huge role in the design of the K90. i am really interested in finding out the whos and whys to the K90.

I know he kanstul and the K90 are two very different horns. I think that is why they work so well. When Deg began to work on three valves, at first they were just the two valve models with a slappe don 3rd valve. This made the baritones very bell heavy. I know, i own one of these monsters.

kanstul designed some great horns. I just love the look of them. He put a lot of thought into these horns in their pratical uses, on the field. He made marching brass.

Mark

Contramark wrote:Leland,

I heard from one of the Spirit of Atlanta guys that got the first round og the K90's that Zig played a huge role in the design of the K90. i am really interested in finding out the whos and whys to the K90.

Talk with Wade. He marched with the original, prototype K-90s.

ThomasDodd wrote:Talk with Wade. He marched with the original, prototype K-90s.

Was he with Sky, too? Those things were beasts...

I never remember seeing Spirit's contra line with anything but piston-rotor Olds contras (well, until they finally got 3-valve horns). I would think that if they had even prototype Kings for one season that they would have kept them for a long time.

My K90 is an old Blue Devils horn, and it's got some of the changes made after the prototypes, notably the taper in the first post-valveset pipe.

I had it on the bus going to a show site during my last season with Empire, and the horn caption head goes, "Jeezus, how can you carry that huge thing everywhere?" I respond with, "Every time I make a noise on it, I feel justified."

BTW – Blue Devils took delivery of the very first production models sometime in the 1981-82 off season and marched with them in 1982. In the 1982 video, you can plainly see that the only groups with them are Sky Ryders and Blue Devils. Most others had Olds or Getzen piston/rotor contras, with the more fortunate ones having the still very new Dynasty II 2 piston horns. (Madison has them, as well as SCV. I would have to look at the video to get any more specific.)

I marched Troopers in 1982, and we were very jealous of Sky Ryders and Devs. We only had 6 DEG contras trying our very best to sound like 8 Kings (not a chance in hell). I was almost in Sky (one of my best friends was in the guard), but Dave Porter told me to call Jim Jones (FYI, Dave won I&E on contra and brass ensemble with Troopers in 1978). There was one more corps I know of with the Kings- San Jose Raiders. We got to toot on them in Montrose, CO. We felt ashamed, very ashamed.

ai698 wrote:I marched Troopers in 1982, and we were very jealous of Sky Ryders and Devs. We only had 6 DEG contras trying our very best to sound like 8 Kings (not a chance in hell). I was almost in Sky (one of my best friends was in the guard), but Dave Porter told me to call Jim Jones (FYI, Dave won I&E on contra and brass ensemble with Troopers in 1978). There was one more corps I know of with the Kings- San Jose Raiders. We got to toot on them in Montrose, CO. We felt ashamed, very ashamed.

Ya know, at least from the outside, the King-equipped Troopers contra lines had more "presence" and pride than anyone else (except maybe two or three really good years of SCV contras). That uniform, body carriage, and the instrument itself came together to form a hell of a visual package.

There are a few contra lines that I draw from for visual & musical style, and the Troopers were one of them.