How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now? Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby GC » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:20 pm

Jim Self's website has a picture of a 4/4 York CC that was restored by Lee Stofer. If my memory is correct, it belonged to the session player who played the Flintstones soundtracks. It's a gorgeous instrument.

http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.html about halfway down on the left.
1914 Conn Monster Eb (my avatar), ca. 1905 Fillmore Bros 1/4-size Eb; Denis Wick 3CC, 2CC; Bach 42B trombone; Ibanez SR-506 6-string bass, MarkBass 102P combo bass amp
User avatar
GC
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:52 am
Location: NW Georgia

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby YORK-aholic » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:43 pm

Oldschooltuba wrote:
york.jpg
It is my understanding that York made about 12 CC tubas. So with these two and the CSO horns, that leave 8 others.


I have also heard that there were roughly 10-12 CCs made, but it was in reference to the 4/4 sized model 692 (the one on the right in your picture). The Rusk cut one on the left almost certainly started life as a 6/4 BBb, likely with 3 top action valves and can't be counted in that number.
Some old Yorks and Martins
User avatar
YORK-aholic
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Running Springs, CA

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby lost » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:58 pm

Yes....the thread was about "original" and not modified and cut up york horns with new valvesets.
User avatar
lost
moderator
moderator
 
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:54 pm
Location: TubeNet Land

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby besson900 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:25 pm

On Baltimorebrass.net is for sale York F tuba model (last one on page)
besson900
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:03 pm

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby Tom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:37 pm

besson900 wrote:On Baltimorebrass.net is for sale York F tuba model (last one on page)


Baltimore Brass Website Says wrote:A used York 5V F tuba assembled using York bell/bows and a King valve section. Features a removable leadpipe and 5th valve. Has cosmetic wear and some plating loss on the valves. Requires a strong ear for intonation. Classic York sound! Used, no case


This is not a factory built York tuba or even originally an F tuba. It is actually a "custom" tuba or a "cut" tuba. That distinction has been explained pretty clearly in this thread, I think. You cannot call this an "original" York.

the elephant wrote:You are confusing York tubas that have been cut to a new key by someone else. In THAT case there are many York tubas out there, including 6/4 horns, that were built in Bb or Eb that others cut to C or F decades later. Such tubas are not York products. They use York parts along with parts from other tubas (in most cases) to create a new tuba that sounds like the original but that use a much more modern valve section set up (four front-facing pistons and a rotary valve for 5th with a slide that lowers the pitch by a flat whole step).

Many of these horns are terrible because the person who cut them did something wrong. It is *very* difficult to successfully cut a horn to play in a new key. Some of them are very decent tubas, though, and usually net a very high price.
The Darling Of The Thirty-Cents-Sharp Low D♭'s.
Tom
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:01 pm

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby toobagrowl » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:38 am

GC wrote:Jim Self's website has a picture of a 4/4 York CC that was restored by Lee Stofer. If my memory is correct, it belonged to the session player who played the Flintstones soundtracks. It's a gorgeous instrument.

http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.html" target="_blank" target="_blank about halfway down on the left.


I think the previous player was George Boujie (sp?). If I remember correctly, I read an article years ago where Mr. Self stated that he played the 4/4 York CC on the 1990's movie "Dennis the Menace". He stated that it is quite a 'lively' tuba. You can hear tuba throughout that movie :!: :tuba:
Last edited by toobagrowl on Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
toobagrowl
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1162
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:12 pm
Location: USA

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby Oldschooltuba » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:35 am

the elephant wrote:You are confusing York tubas that have been cut to a new key by someone else. In THAT case there are many York tubas out there, including 6/4 horns, that were built in Bb or Eb that others cut to C or F decades later. Such tubas are not York products. They use York parts along with parts from other tubas (in most cases) to create a new tuba that sounds like the original but that use a much more modern valve section set up (four front-facing pistons and a rotary valve for 5th with a slide that lowers the pitch by a flat whole step).
.
[/quote]


Elephant's description of my horn is spot on. However, Bob Rusk did a great job on this one. Playing it side by side with other Yorks, its sound is spot on. Intonation is very very good. It is a very responsive clear sounding 6/4 mostly York tuba. Not bad for a horn that is around 95 years old.
Eric Hunter
186CC 5U (gone)
Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC (gone)
Silver CC Piggy (gone)
Meinl Weston F Model 45 (Gone)
B&S 5/4 CC Prototype
Yamaha 822F
York 6/4 CC (yes a real York BAT)
Oldschooltuba
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:37 pm

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby windshieldbug » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:46 am

In the Simonetti tuba collection there is a horn marked "York and Sons" which is in F and BBb (a full double tuba). Since the valves are purpose-built, if not York, someone went to a LOT of trouble to build a York in F...

https://simonettitubacollection.com/ins ... uble-tuba/
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
 
Posts: 11014
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: How many "orginal" York CC tubas we have now? ;)

Postby the elephant » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:56 am

the elephant wrote:You are confusing York tubas that have been cut to a new key by someone else. In THAT case there are many York tubas out there, including 6/4 horns, that were built in Bb or Eb that others cut to C or F decades later. Such tubas are not York products. They use York parts along with parts from other tubas (in most cases) to create a new tuba that sounds like the original but that use a much more modern valve section set up (four front-facing pistons and a rotary valve for 5th with a slide that lowers the pitch by a flat whole step).


Oldschooltuba wrote:Elephant's description of my horn is spot on. However, Bob Rusk did a great job on this one. Playing it side by side with other Yorks, its sound is spot on. Intonation is very very good. It is a very responsive clear sounding 6/4 mostly York tuba. Not bad for a horn that is around 95 years old.


My Rusk-cut Holton 345 also plays very well, with some flaws. I have been hard at work to correct his terrible workmanship so that it better reflects his excellent engineering. Hopefully the tuba will be as fantastic as it *could* be once I have finished correcting some horrors hidden under the silver plate he put on it. ;-)
Last edited by the elephant on Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 13713
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby the elephant » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:00 am

windshieldbug wrote:In the Simonetti tuba collection there is a horn marked "York and Sons" which is in F and BBb (a full double tuba). Since the valves are purpose-built, if not York, someone went to a LOT of trouble to build a York in F...

https://simonettitubacollection.com/ins ... uble-tuba/" target="_blank" target="_blank


Since the Germans have the tradition of BBb and F with F being the primary horn and BBb the "extra" one, it could be that York filled a special order for a German who came to the US and could not find an F he liked. At the time that "York and Sons" was the marque I think BBb/F double tubas existed in Europe. It is hard to tell with such custom horns, since they do not appear in catalogs and sometimes there is little or no record of them having been made in the first place. So I could imagine this tuba being 100% York while still saying that York did not sell F tubas.

It could also be a very old FrankenTuba... 8)
Image
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 13713
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby bloke » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:10 pm

As far as "cut" C tubas are concerned, I've played a couple of very successful 4/4 (originally: 3V top-action) York instruments that were flipped around and fit with King 1241 valvesets. Not too much ends up really being "cut", as the King dogleg articulates really well with the smaller York upper bow. The 5th partial (E, Eb) was pretty friggin' flat on both of those tubas, but - other than that - they were playable and "real purdy"-sounding.

============================================================================
extremely off topic: The 4/4 Buescher Bb tubas from the 1920's make significantly better C tubas than Bb's, and require no cutting of the bows...but I've stated this here way too many times in the past.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 41238
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby happyroman » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:11 pm

In this video interview with Bob Rusk, he said that he was aware of 12 York CC tubas that were made, and knew the whereabouts of six of them. As we all know, Bob was famous not only as an excellent tubist with the Milwaukee Symphony for 25 years, but he also took York BBb tubas and cut them down to CC (as well as cutting Eb to F). During this time, he became quite an expert on York tubas, so this info is probably as good as one can find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE6E2Ne_D5k
Andy
happyroman
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:12 pm
Location: Evanston, IL

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby pigman » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:44 pm

98% of the instruments York made were crap.
If not for the 2 Chicago horns no one would know the York name
I have owned 6 yorks most require a board strapped to you butt so you dont fall in

There may be some good cut jobs out there but on the whole. Forget the ledgend and look elseware.
I have Played Both the Chicago horns. Tey are not perfect nor are the the holy grail
pigman
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:19 pm
Location: long Island, NY

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby Tim Jackson » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:38 am

here is an all original York 6/4 CC from the 20s. Well... haha - actually a BBb but I like to say it's one of the horns that inspired early tubists to request a CC 6/4 from York. Much more color than the 345 I once owned. Singing high register and rockin' low end. I think I paid around 7K on a very wild ebay battle years ago. (a very cool story in itself) I have never regretted jumping on this one... amazing how many orchestral pieces can be managed on 3 valves. It is so much fun in a large hall! I really think part of the magic in this player is the fact that it only has 3 valves. The intonation is very good. I'm sure there are better horns - but the resonate sound and color this horn brings has been a joy on every use. OK, down side... it has the longest valve throw I have ever had the pleasure of reckoning with. I use a York 91 mouthpiece and just acquired the vintage York Al-tru - both mps have the Kaiser shank.
The horn plays at A440 with the donut disengaged. I reads so much about the difficulties of vintage 6/4s... This model/design is very nice.

Tim J
Attachments
1920s York Tuba front view .jpg
1920s York Tuba front view .jpg (56.03 KiB) Viewed 672 times
Tim Jackson
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:34 pm
Location: Pensacola Florida

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby lost » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:14 am

pigman wrote:98% of the instruments York made were crap.
If not for the 2 Chicago horns no one would know the York name
I have owned 6 yorks most require a board strapped to you butt so you dont fall in

There may be some good cut jobs out there but on the whole. Forget the ledgend and look elseware.
I have Played Both the Chicago horns. Tey are not perfect nor are the the holy grail


Clearly they weren't the right 6 horns Ray. All my yorks sing and rumble. Have Martin Wilk or a qualified instrument tech look at them. Too many environmental variables on old horns for such a broad proclamation me thinks.
User avatar
lost
moderator
moderator
 
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:54 pm
Location: TubeNet Land

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby roweenie » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:14 am

pigman wrote:98% of the instruments York made were crap.
If not for the 2 Chicago horns no one would know the York name
I have owned 6 yorks most require a board strapped to you butt so you dont fall in

There may be some good cut jobs out there but on the whole. Forget the ledgend and look elseware.
I have Played Both the Chicago horns. Tey are not perfect nor are the the holy grail


If you mean crap regarding build quality (and I'm not sure that's what you mean), I'd have to agree with you at that level - but that's where it ends.

(I suspect the folks at the York factory were understaffed and overworked, and cut a few corners here-and-there.....)

With that said, you should come play the ones I've got, I think you'd take this statement back.
Hard boiled eggs and nuts
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:17 am
Location: Anyplace but here

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby Donn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:13 am

Note that "98% of the instruments York made" would be mostly instruments other than tubas - saxophones, trumpets, etc. No one wants that stuff at all.
User avatar
Donn
TubeNet Sponsor
TubeNet Sponsor
 
Posts: 5248
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby windshieldbug » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:46 am

York can divided into two periods- before and after Carl Fischer.
Before WWII and Fischer they were a specialty company capable of making the best hand-made instruments. After Fischer bought them the Grand Rapids plant was changed to make mass-manufacturing student-line instruments with output and profit the prime motive.
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
 
Posts: 11014
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby lost » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:04 pm

windshieldbug wrote:York can divided into two periods- before and after Carl Fischer.
Before WWII and Fischer they were a specialty company capable of making the best hand-made instruments. After Fischer bought them the Grand Rapids plant was changed to make mass-manufacturing student-line instruments with output and profit the prime motive.



Good point. Those less knowledgable about york history who think a 50's york compares with a 30's horn are mistaken.

Although the OP played both chicago yorks and was unimpressed, so I imagine changing his mind is moot.
User avatar
lost
moderator
moderator
 
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:54 pm
Location: TubeNet Land

Re: How many "original" York CC tubas do we have now?

Postby Daniel C. Oberloh » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:55 pm

From my own experience,

I know of a hand full of original York CC tubas scattered around the US. They vary in condition and operational states.

pigman wrote:98% of the instruments York made were crap.

York instruments across the board were well made. The designs of the trumpets, cornets and trombones were okay but for the most part, rather pedestrian. However, they did make some very fine examples of trumpets and cornets such as the the Feather Touch, Monarch and the highly collectable Air Flow models of the 1930s. York made saxophones that were of cutting edge design and construction but those are quite rare and were not able to compete with the likes of Conn, Martin or the sax manufacturing giant Buescher. They offed French horn models that were from a design stand point, simply copies of instruments offered by other manufacturers like C.F. Schmidt (King and Conn did the same and still do).
Their low brass models were the flagship of J.W. York. Their tubas, euphoniums and baritones were well designed but like ALL low brass of that period, York's had some minor intonation issues to some degree that were quite manageable, All suffer to some extent the ravages of time so to to critically state that they have build quality issues is a bit of a stretch when talking about eighty-plus year old horns.

I have personally rebuilt numerous York valve assemblies and find them to have very good construction and clearly thought out designs that quite neatly lend themselves to future repair and rebuild. The materials used thru out were top shelf and the plating was of the highest quality. The branches, bows, crooks and drawn tubing are as good as any other manufacturer of the period, if not better. The machined components were consistent, well designed and accurately executed as was there bell spinning and stack-bow extrusion. Pre WWII York instrument build quality was fantastic and to state the contrary, in my view shows a truly limited knowledge of this topic. I have rebuilt numerous York instruments and have several waiting in the wings, including one early 30s CC recording model. They are not easy projects by any stretch of the imagination but in my opinion, all are a worthwhile effort.

Image

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com
User avatar
Daniel C. Oberloh
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Seattle Washington

PreviousNext

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Bnich93, Mark, NCSUSousa, TubaOtaku and 16 guests