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Where do you guys tongue on your mouth?

I tongue where my gum and teeth meet is that correct?

I developed this as a beginner since it seemed the easiest. Is it right?

If not, how to learn to "re-tongue".

PLEASE HELP

-Raghul

That’s “correct” by the book placement. But some players (I heard this from Dan Parentoni) move the tongue lower and lower for lower pitched attacks. At some point you may be tongueing between your lips for clean low attacks!

https://youtu.be/G3pmBNnwMA0" target="_blank" target="_blank

"I always believe it best to be somewhat unconscious of our physical maneuvers and highly conscious of our musical goals." - Arnold Jacobs

TheTuba wrote:Where do you guys tongue on your mouth?

I tongue where my gum and teeth meet is that correct?
-Raghul

There are two places where your gum and teeth meet - the upper teeth and lower teeth. Which do you mean?

If it is the upper teeth, I still would ask if you are tonguing with the tip, or the dorsal surface back of the tip.

Many trumpet players dorsal tongue. Some trombone players dorsal tongue (probably more than realize it).

Do any tuba players?

I'm curious who or what told you that it is a SUPER BAD habit. There is literally nothing wrong with articulating as you described, and is probably where most people place their tongue.

Mark Finley wrote:Say "too toh doo doh" slowly

Those differ a bit with geography. Certainly in the US alone a New Yorker, California, and Georgian would say "too" considerably differently. Someone from Spain or Korea would pronounce those quite a bit different.

The OP's username is a common one in India.

Mark Finley wrote:

timothy42b wrote:

Mark Finley wrote:Say "too toh doo doh" slowly

Those differ a bit with geography. Certainly in the US alone a New Yorker, California, and Georgian would say "too" considerably differently. Someone from Spain or Korea would pronounce those quite a bit different.

The OP's username is a common one in India.

He lives 30 miles from me, near dallas

So you and he would probably have the same understanding of what those syllables sound like. Someone not from there very well might not.

fourbass wrote:"I always believe it best to be somewhat unconscious of our physical maneuvers and highly conscious of our musical goals." - Arnold Jacobs

+1000

The most "conscious" I ever get with my physical maneuvers is using a good vowel shape ("oh" and not "ee") and the appropriate consonant type ("t" versus "d", for example). All the minutiae fall into place after that.

I've recently had to teach my nephew how to tongue from scratch. Neither his previous tutor nor his band director must have noticed that he was starting his notes with "pah". At least now he's aware of it and has been getting more consistent with tonguing.

timothy42b wrote:So you and he would probably have the same understanding of what those syllables sound like. Someone not from there very well might not.

You have be a native speaker of French, no? to get it right (because Arban was.)

I tongue like thoo

Donn wrote:

timothy42b wrote:So you and he would probably have the same understanding of what those syllables sound like. Someone not from there very well might not.

You have be a native speaker of French, no? to get it right (because Arban was.)

Yes, that's my point.

There is huge variation in both vowel and consonant sounds across languages, and we don't always realize we don't speak the same language.

Plus, there is often a smooth continuum between choices. Aw to ooh for example, is not binary, but many many, as Ms Haefele proves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC9Qh709gas" target="_blank

Leland wrote:

fourbass wrote:"I always believe it best to be somewhat unconscious of our physical maneuvers and highly conscious of our musical goals." - Arnold Jacobs

+1000
.

I agree, when it works.

It works for you and for some students. Every student is different and a good many need a different approach.

timothy42b wrote: I agree, when it works.

It works for you and for some students. Every student is different and a good many need a different approach.

Sure, but there are only so many ways that an English-esque "toh" can sound before it has to be written differently (such as "thoh," or "too," or "tyoo").

It's also why giving lessons via the written word is never as good as doing them in person where you can hear (or see) each other. I would have never guessed that my nephew had inadvertently taught himself to begin notes with "pah" if I hadn't been sitting next to him.

But yeah, to get him started with using his tongue, we had to get into the details of tongue placement -- but as soon as possible, we got away from the physiological descriptors and started using syllables. Once he understood that different consonants resulted in different tongue placement, we didn't need to over-analyze the tongue anymore.

Leland wrote:as soon as possible, we got away from the physiological descriptors and started using syllables. Once he understood that different consonants resulted in different tongue placement, we didn't need to over-analyze the tongue anymore.

Agreed. It's the result that you're looking for, NOT NECESSARILY the application of a particular technique.
Jacobs was famous for this approach, as has been mentioned.

As an personal example, I'd always had what I considered short upper teeth.
Later in life I became flush enough to have bonding to "correct" this.
This WAS a case where my sound and articulation changed enough to require physical modification of my articulation.
I had been using, as you say, mostly a teeth/gum point of contact which slipped to the tips of the front teeth in the low register.
After the dental work my sound and articulation change, which was NOT the case when I had my wisdom teeth removed.

Bottom line: "correct" techniques will give you the BEST CHANCE to develop a good sound and range, but the one that WORKS FOR YOU is the right one. Remember Farkas' Photographic study of 40 virtuoso horn players' embouchures: not too many could be described as an embrochure to be emulated...

Speaking of Tonguing & geography: When I met Roger Bobo a few years ago (Yay!!!), he said something very cool during a masterclass... "Blindfold me and put me in a room of tuba players, and I will tell you what region of the world each is from based on their articulation." I thought that was sooo cool, and since then I've definitely been much more aware of this while teaching international students...a little "speech therapy" goes a long way! Personally, the only time I am currently "conscious" of my tongue is while double-tonguing... I switch my syllable from T-K to Duh-Guh which helped me with clarity & sound quality while double-tonguing. Jobey

Back in the 70s Rafael Mendez came to our area twice and I was able to play in the band accompanying his solos.

His articulation was incredible, and I wondered at the time if being a native Spanish speaker had anything to do with it.

windshieldbug wrote: I had been using, as you say, mostly a teeth/gum point of contact which slipped to the tips of the front teeth in the low register.
After the dental work my sound and articulation change, which was NOT the case when I had my wisdom teeth removed.

If you are using dorsal tonguing, depending on the length of your tongue the tip might on the front teeth, between them, or behind the lower teeth in the gully.

Many people use dorsal tonguing unawares. Not saying you were, necessarily, but that's a possible cause of what you experienced.

Ok, I just had a lesson with a private teacher, and he agrees that my tonging is wrong. I went home and practiced with my 7B Helleberg, not my Bach 18. Articulation is way better, although its not a doo,toh,doh,or too tongue. Should I switch to my 7B? Also, how do you learn to re-tongue? To give you an idea, I previously can tongue 16th notes at 120 bpm (which can get better I know).

Thank you!
-Raghul

Though ideal cup diameter probably does vary from one person to the next. Maybe that private teacher would have some insight into the question.