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Re: tuning

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:50 am
by Ken Crawford
Tuning is innate. If you have to discuss the act of tuning with those playing around you things aren't going to be in tune. The most out of tune groups spend the most time tuning.

Re: tuning

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:54 am
by Three Valves
bloke wrote: They told me that they were once in a room with someone who (a "tuning" authority) was doing a lecture on "tuning"...a person who went into great detail regarding the tuning of 3rds, 6ths, 5ths, etc...
Towards the end of the lecture, they (miscalculating...??) reached out to my friend for their comments. According to my always-soft-spoken friend, their response was, "If something is out-of-tune, fix it. Let's go to lunch."
I can tell which one has, aspires to have, or is studying for, a D.M.A. and which isn't...

Re: tuning

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:46 pm
by Ace
Speaking of being in tune, I dislike vocalists with very wide vibratos-------rapidly moving back and forth above, on, and below the pitch. This means that they are bound to be in tune part of the time. Ha.

Ace

Re: tuning

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:53 pm
by bort
Three Valves wrote:I can tell which one has, aspires to have, or is studying for, a D.M.A. and which isn't...
As a current PhD student (NOT in music), that was the first thought in my mind as well. Wrong audience (that one person, at least!)

Side note: I've always thought this is the hardest thing about being a musician -- you KNOW what it's supposed to sound like, it's just a matter of DOING it, and doing it CONSISTENTLY. Then again, that's what separates amateur and professional players.

Re: tuning

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:24 pm
by doublebuzzing
Ken Crawford wrote:Tuning is innate. If you have to discuss the act of tuning with those playing around you things aren't going to be in tune. The most out of tune groups spend the most time tuning.
Ahh, brings me back to HS where we would sit around tuning the brass group for 20 minutes and still be out of time 5 minutes later.

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:37 am
by windshieldbug
For students, attention to Equal Temperament (most tuners) must be learned in order to determine the pitch tendencies of their horns. From there Pure Temperament must be felt. Nobody can analyze a piece on the fly to know which chord interval they have and make the “proper” adjustments. Moreover, these adjustments are so slight that one either feels it or they don’t. :shock:
Working with a bass trombone who “gets it” is a very rewarding experience, and one finds that you’ll never sound better as a result... :tuba:

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:13 am
by timothy42b
Do you adjust to the bass trombone?

When playing trombone in ensemble, I tend to listen for the tuba pitch. (provided of course they are playing what sounds in tune to my ear)

The tone of both tuba and bass trombone makes a difference in how easy it is to tune with them. There's something about the focus - with some players I can match pitch easily, others leave me confused.

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:47 am
by Three Valves
I have only recently noticed, that alternative fingerings for the hi-C,D and Db are required in some key signatures but not in others in order to "sound" in tune with myself.

Could my sense of pitch actually be getting better?? :shock:

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:11 am
by bigboymusic
I have been very lucky with my bone sections over the years...

There was a set of concerts that I played with a bass boner that had a tuner on his stand the whole time.... That was HORRIBLE..... He 'knew' he was in tune because he watched the dial....

Kill me now...

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 pm
by swillafew
I had conductor in school once who was obsessed with blending each section, and pitch discrepancies were beaten out of us like a disease. The time investment was huge, and the blend and pitch were what you'd expect after all that trouble. Our tuba sectionals were devoted to playing whole note major scales until we sounded like one person.

In the same term I was a guest in another ensemble at a different school, where no time was spent on such matters. The music sounded like somebody banging on pots and pans.

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:29 pm
by Patrase
Interesting points about people learning the pitch. I have been playing a long time and had previously been taught by very good brass players. But rarely was intonation the focus. As such my intonation was pretty ordinary. I certainly didn't have a very good ear.

But then one of the pro players I was playing with in a a very good band made a suggestion. He suggested I get a drone app and play along with that. It was a revelation. I learned to lip up or down to get rid of the 'wobbles.' In band I suddenly found myself trying to lock into the 1st chair intonation and doing so very well.

I am still a little weak on intonation when it's just me playing. But as as long as I have something to lock into (piano or a good player) then I can play in tune. I would like to learn about the different temperant tunings.

I have since wondered why teachers and band directors don't prescribe a tuning drone app to all their students. I wonder if most amateur bands could eliminate nearly all of the really bad tuning if the members used a tuning drone in personal practice. Would be interested to know their attitudes towards them

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:15 pm
by Mark

Re: tuning

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:35 pm
by TubaKen
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
The Annunciation is the announcement to Mary that she would conceive the Son of God, or similar biblical revelations.
I believe Bloke may have had enunciation in mind.
Back to the topic: Most of my tuba-playing life has been spent reading notes on the page, and almost all of that has been classical. But I was once asked to sub (by my Dad) in a polka band. The leader handed me a very thick book, but he would play tunes as they came to him, very rapid-fire. After about 15 minutes, I realized the futility of trying to find the right chart, and just decided to play by ear. It was pretty bad at first, but after about half an hour, I started getting the hang of it. And after a few days, I discovered I could tell what key a piece was in (on the radio, say) just by the way it "felt". Unfortunately, that ability went away (which I believe would also occur to someone without absolute pitch who doesn't constantly reinforce this practice.)

Re: tuning

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:35 pm
by timothy42b
Patrase wrote: I have since wondered why teachers and band directors don't prescribe a tuning drone app to all their students. I wonder if most amateur bands could eliminate nearly all of the really bad tuning if the members used a tuning drone in personal practice. Would be interested to know their attitudes towards them
I use a drone. And once Steven Colley showed up at a band rehearsal and played with us - pretty good horn player. (He's the creator of that Tuneup program)

But, what do strings do? String sections in a community orchestra can be..........well it's charitable to call them painful on any kind of moving passage. Whole notes they try to tune up.

Re: tuning

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:17 pm
by MaryAnn
For some people, hearing beats is so unpleasant that they will avoid them and hence be one of the "innate" types. For others, either they don't hear the beats, no one has told them they are not supposed to be there, or whatever. Never, ever, have I seen a community level OR college level conductor tell the damn trumpet section to listen for and get rid of the beats on a unison pitch. I've seen college level instructors yell at a flute section to "FIX IT!" but not be able to tell them how to do so. Steve Colley's Tuneup is all anybody needs.

Re: tuning

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:50 pm
by bone-a-phone
Trombonists, above a certain proficiency level, generally don't like to lip notes unless you get a flat note in first position, or a sharp one before the slide falls off. We will play a false tone when the situation calls for it. Those of us who have studied that far generally like to put the slide in the middle of the pitch, which at first happens by ear (and that reaction takes some time), and eventually by muscle memory (with the ear as a correction). You have to learn intonation, but it eventually becomes more or less reflexive.

Most of us have to play in situations where we have musicians of mixed abilities. Some are concentrating on notes, or time, or counting measures, and wind up ignoring intonation for a while. Whatever the cause, it happens. If you have a skilled player and an unskilled player, the skilled player winds up either frustrated and constantly out of tune, or frustrated but in tune with the out-of-tune less skilled player. So you can be melodically in tune with yourself, or harmonically in tune with someone else around you. It's unfair because better players are more or less forced to let the less skilled dictate the tuning, since the less skilled simply don't adjust.

Although it's nice to talk about different tuning systems, its far from the musical reality a lot of us have to deal with. We're lucky to get a chord held for less than 2 seconds to eventually settle, to say nothing of running notes. The difference in my quartet between having 4 reasonably good players and just trading out one of the reasonably good for someone with a really good ear is huge. If two people out of four agree on the intonation most of the time, the other two will come in line more quickly than if it's an "every boner for themselves" sort of situation.

When I play in the quintet I'm in, it's easy to play in tune with the tuba and French horn, but less easy to play in tune with the trumpets, which is unfortunate. This is probably due to the players involved, not the instruments.

I think quartet playing has helped my intonation more than anything. At least playing with other good players gives you a chance of hitting the opening chord of a piece close to in tune, with small adjustments from a couple players reacting quickly hopefully before the audience hears there was ever an issue.

I'm meandering here, but my main point started out to be that true intonation can wander when you play with a mixed skill level group. To play in tune with one other weaker player, you have to give up to some extent being in tune with yourself. Given the choice between tuning to myself or to those around me, I usually go with those around me. It's easier to hear an out of tune simultaneous interval, but pitch memory is not as strong, so hearing two notes in succession you would tend to forget or forgive the bad intonation more easily.

Re: tuning

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 am
by timothy42b
bone-a-phone wrote:Trombonists, above a certain proficiency level, generally don't like to lip notes unless you get a flat note in first position, or a sharp one before the slide falls off.
Yes. The tuning slide is in my right hand. The best tone I can get is if I play exactly in the center of the slot and adjust pitch with my hand. This option is not available to the euphonium. A really good euphonium lips or alternate fingerings into tune; in amateur groups I play in they aren't all at that level. On a unison line with a euph I end up dropping out while they go quarter step (or more) sharp.


Most of us have to play in situations where we have musicians of mixed abilities.

I'm meandering here, but my main point started out to be that true intonation can wander when you play with a mixed skill level group. To play in tune with one other weaker player, you have to give up to some extent being in tune with yourself. Given the choice between tuning to myself or to those around me, I usually go with those around me.
It's nice when the tuba is solidly on pitch. Then we can all listen down, and the trombone section can sort of enforce a core pitch. The better players will line up automatically, and the less skilled will float anyway. That also depends a bit on the tuba having a tone focused enough pitch recognition is easy - sometimes the timbre is a bit wide down there and it can be hard to place it precisely.

I played in a very good community band for some years that did most things musically well but had uncertain pitch. One night I was struggling to match pitch as it floated depending on what section was prominent at the moment, and a more experienced player said to me, "Tim, you're part of the problem. Don't follow them; insist on being right." That was a bit of a foreign idea to someone who tries to put ensemble first, but in this case he was right. (He left the group largely because of intonation, I think. We do lose the pro's that way.)

Re: tuning

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:02 am
by ronr
A group that I play in always tunes to me. The conductor asks me if I have a tuner. “Yes, yes I do.” I don’t think he’s figured out the tuner’s in my head.

Re: tuning

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:19 am
by Aglenntuba
I spent several hours today trying to record all the parts of my favorite trombone section excerpts with a cheesy little iPad app called acapella. To say that it has been quite a lesson on intonation would be a huge understatement. It definitely highlighted my weaknesses for me :oops: I think I'm gonna keep doing it until I manage to get it sounding decent. But I may switch over to a less harmonically complicated excerpt than Bruckner 7 :tuba:

Re: tuning

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:01 am
by Voisi1ev
bloke wrote:I barely remember writing this on facebook...Someone just "liked" this (old) post, which was my response to someone listing a bunch of "professional orchestra etiquette"...

...It's still the truth, so a found a thread here about "tuning", and am copying/pasting my facebook post here:
tuning note:
I usually do not play one. I play an instrument called the TUBA. The pitch is very flexible, I know where my slides' default positions are - based on the orchestra's tuning guidelines, and the consistent temperature of the hall (three in which I play: A=440), and the objective is to keep my instrument warm (next to my body) when not playing, so that it is ready to use, when it's time to use it. Those who actually do wish to involve themselves in some brief last-moment tuning assurance do not need a tuba player ("over there") going "WOOOOOOOOOOO" (with a bunch of rich overtones in the playing range of most of the other instruments, and with some of those overtones not lining up with the equal temperament tuning system) while they are trying to final-tune their instruments.

Man, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sort of thinks that. A quick check doesn't hurt anything but I find too many conductors that think a tuning pitch is the key to success. It also drives me crazy when groups take a pitch like this after a break. Like my horn is freaking freezing Mr. Bigglesworth.

I always try and teach/conceptual intonation myself as more like playing darts than measuring something with a tape measure.

Not sure if this is a ubiquitous or helpful concept, but I was also told once to consider being "in tune" something you do on a pitch, or checking with the tuning marching. Playing with good intonation is playing in tune on the fly with others in a group.