tuning

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: tuning

Post by bigboymusic »

I have been very lucky with my bone sections over the years...

There was a set of concerts that I played with a bass boner that had a tuner on his stand the whole time.... That was HORRIBLE..... He 'knew' he was in tune because he watched the dial....

Kill me now...
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
swillafew
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:20 pm
Location: Aurora, IL

Re: tuning

Post by swillafew »

I had conductor in school once who was obsessed with blending each section, and pitch discrepancies were beaten out of us like a disease. The time investment was huge, and the blend and pitch were what you'd expect after all that trouble. Our tuba sectionals were devoted to playing whole note major scales until we sounded like one person.

In the same term I was a guest in another ensemble at a different school, where no time was spent on such matters. The music sounded like somebody banging on pots and pans.
MORE AIR
Patrase
bugler
bugler
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: tuning

Post by Patrase »

Interesting points about people learning the pitch. I have been playing a long time and had previously been taught by very good brass players. But rarely was intonation the focus. As such my intonation was pretty ordinary. I certainly didn't have a very good ear.

But then one of the pro players I was playing with in a a very good band made a suggestion. He suggested I get a drone app and play along with that. It was a revelation. I learned to lip up or down to get rid of the 'wobbles.' In band I suddenly found myself trying to lock into the 1st chair intonation and doing so very well.

I am still a little weak on intonation when it's just me playing. But as as long as I have something to lock into (piano or a good player) then I can play in tune. I would like to learn about the different temperant tunings.

I have since wondered why teachers and band directors don't prescribe a tuning drone app to all their students. I wonder if most amateur bands could eliminate nearly all of the really bad tuning if the members used a tuning drone in personal practice. Would be interested to know their attitudes towards them
Miraphone Norwegian Star
Yamaha YBB-632 Bb Neo
Mark

Re: tuning

Post by Mark »

User avatar
TubaKen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: tuning

Post by TubaKen »

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
The Annunciation is the announcement to Mary that she would conceive the Son of God, or similar biblical revelations.
I believe Bloke may have had enunciation in mind.
Back to the topic: Most of my tuba-playing life has been spent reading notes on the page, and almost all of that has been classical. But I was once asked to sub (by my Dad) in a polka band. The leader handed me a very thick book, but he would play tunes as they came to him, very rapid-fire. After about 15 minutes, I realized the futility of trying to find the right chart, and just decided to play by ear. It was pretty bad at first, but after about half an hour, I started getting the hang of it. And after a few days, I discovered I could tell what key a piece was in (on the radio, say) just by the way it "felt". Unfortunately, that ability went away (which I believe would also occur to someone without absolute pitch who doesn't constantly reinforce this practice.)
timothy42b
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:57 pm

Re: tuning

Post by timothy42b »

Patrase wrote: I have since wondered why teachers and band directors don't prescribe a tuning drone app to all their students. I wonder if most amateur bands could eliminate nearly all of the really bad tuning if the members used a tuning drone in personal practice. Would be interested to know their attitudes towards them
I use a drone. And once Steven Colley showed up at a band rehearsal and played with us - pretty good horn player. (He's the creator of that Tuneup program)

But, what do strings do? String sections in a community orchestra can be..........well it's charitable to call them painful on any kind of moving passage. Whole notes they try to tune up.
User avatar
MaryAnn
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58 am

Re: tuning

Post by MaryAnn »

For some people, hearing beats is so unpleasant that they will avoid them and hence be one of the "innate" types. For others, either they don't hear the beats, no one has told them they are not supposed to be there, or whatever. Never, ever, have I seen a community level OR college level conductor tell the damn trumpet section to listen for and get rid of the beats on a unison pitch. I've seen college level instructors yell at a flute section to "FIX IT!" but not be able to tell them how to do so. Steve Colley's Tuneup is all anybody needs.
bone-a-phone
bugler
bugler
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 am

Re: tuning

Post by bone-a-phone »

Trombonists, above a certain proficiency level, generally don't like to lip notes unless you get a flat note in first position, or a sharp one before the slide falls off. We will play a false tone when the situation calls for it. Those of us who have studied that far generally like to put the slide in the middle of the pitch, which at first happens by ear (and that reaction takes some time), and eventually by muscle memory (with the ear as a correction). You have to learn intonation, but it eventually becomes more or less reflexive.

Most of us have to play in situations where we have musicians of mixed abilities. Some are concentrating on notes, or time, or counting measures, and wind up ignoring intonation for a while. Whatever the cause, it happens. If you have a skilled player and an unskilled player, the skilled player winds up either frustrated and constantly out of tune, or frustrated but in tune with the out-of-tune less skilled player. So you can be melodically in tune with yourself, or harmonically in tune with someone else around you. It's unfair because better players are more or less forced to let the less skilled dictate the tuning, since the less skilled simply don't adjust.

Although it's nice to talk about different tuning systems, its far from the musical reality a lot of us have to deal with. We're lucky to get a chord held for less than 2 seconds to eventually settle, to say nothing of running notes. The difference in my quartet between having 4 reasonably good players and just trading out one of the reasonably good for someone with a really good ear is huge. If two people out of four agree on the intonation most of the time, the other two will come in line more quickly than if it's an "every boner for themselves" sort of situation.

When I play in the quintet I'm in, it's easy to play in tune with the tuba and French horn, but less easy to play in tune with the trumpets, which is unfortunate. This is probably due to the players involved, not the instruments.

I think quartet playing has helped my intonation more than anything. At least playing with other good players gives you a chance of hitting the opening chord of a piece close to in tune, with small adjustments from a couple players reacting quickly hopefully before the audience hears there was ever an issue.

I'm meandering here, but my main point started out to be that true intonation can wander when you play with a mixed skill level group. To play in tune with one other weaker player, you have to give up to some extent being in tune with yourself. Given the choice between tuning to myself or to those around me, I usually go with those around me. It's easier to hear an out of tune simultaneous interval, but pitch memory is not as strong, so hearing two notes in succession you would tend to forget or forgive the bad intonation more easily.
timothy42b
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:57 pm

Re: tuning

Post by timothy42b »

bone-a-phone wrote:Trombonists, above a certain proficiency level, generally don't like to lip notes unless you get a flat note in first position, or a sharp one before the slide falls off.
Yes. The tuning slide is in my right hand. The best tone I can get is if I play exactly in the center of the slot and adjust pitch with my hand. This option is not available to the euphonium. A really good euphonium lips or alternate fingerings into tune; in amateur groups I play in they aren't all at that level. On a unison line with a euph I end up dropping out while they go quarter step (or more) sharp.


Most of us have to play in situations where we have musicians of mixed abilities.

I'm meandering here, but my main point started out to be that true intonation can wander when you play with a mixed skill level group. To play in tune with one other weaker player, you have to give up to some extent being in tune with yourself. Given the choice between tuning to myself or to those around me, I usually go with those around me.
It's nice when the tuba is solidly on pitch. Then we can all listen down, and the trombone section can sort of enforce a core pitch. The better players will line up automatically, and the less skilled will float anyway. That also depends a bit on the tuba having a tone focused enough pitch recognition is easy - sometimes the timbre is a bit wide down there and it can be hard to place it precisely.

I played in a very good community band for some years that did most things musically well but had uncertain pitch. One night I was struggling to match pitch as it floated depending on what section was prominent at the moment, and a more experienced player said to me, "Tim, you're part of the problem. Don't follow them; insist on being right." That was a bit of a foreign idea to someone who tries to put ensemble first, but in this case he was right. (He left the group largely because of intonation, I think. We do lose the pro's that way.)
User avatar
ronr
bugler
bugler
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:05 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: tuning

Post by ronr »

A group that I play in always tunes to me. The conductor asks me if I have a tuner. “Yes, yes I do.” I don’t think he’s figured out the tuner’s in my head.
Aglenntuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:08 pm
Location: North Texas

Re: tuning

Post by Aglenntuba »

I spent several hours today trying to record all the parts of my favorite trombone section excerpts with a cheesy little iPad app called acapella. To say that it has been quite a lesson on intonation would be a huge understatement. It definitely highlighted my weaknesses for me :oops: I think I'm gonna keep doing it until I manage to get it sounding decent. But I may switch over to a less harmonically complicated excerpt than Bruckner 7 :tuba:
Voisi1ev
bugler
bugler
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:43 am
Location: Michigan

Re: tuning

Post by Voisi1ev »

bloke wrote:I barely remember writing this on facebook...Someone just "liked" this (old) post, which was my response to someone listing a bunch of "professional orchestra etiquette"...

...It's still the truth, so a found a thread here about "tuning", and am copying/pasting my facebook post here:
tuning note:
I usually do not play one. I play an instrument called the TUBA. The pitch is very flexible, I know where my slides' default positions are - based on the orchestra's tuning guidelines, and the consistent temperature of the hall (three in which I play: A=440), and the objective is to keep my instrument warm (next to my body) when not playing, so that it is ready to use, when it's time to use it. Those who actually do wish to involve themselves in some brief last-moment tuning assurance do not need a tuba player ("over there") going "WOOOOOOOOOOO" (with a bunch of rich overtones in the playing range of most of the other instruments, and with some of those overtones not lining up with the equal temperament tuning system) while they are trying to final-tune their instruments.

Man, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sort of thinks that. A quick check doesn't hurt anything but I find too many conductors that think a tuning pitch is the key to success. It also drives me crazy when groups take a pitch like this after a break. Like my horn is freaking freezing Mr. Bigglesworth.

I always try and teach/conceptual intonation myself as more like playing darts than measuring something with a tape measure.

Not sure if this is a ubiquitous or helpful concept, but I was also told once to consider being "in tune" something you do on a pitch, or checking with the tuning marching. Playing with good intonation is playing in tune on the fly with others in a group.
Radar
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Rochester NY

Re: tuning

Post by Radar »

bigboymusic wrote:I have been very lucky with my bone sections over the years...

There was a set of concerts that I played with a bass boner that had a tuner on his stand the whole time.... That was HORRIBLE..... He 'knew' he was in tune because he watched the dial....

Kill me now...
We have a trumpet in one of the bands I'm in that has a tuner clipped to his bell all the time, he often sounds out of tune even though his tuner tells him he's right on. When I practice Bass Trombone at home I use a snark Tuner on the bell to double check and reinforce where the slide positions are for the various partials, on the open Bb horn, the F horn, and in my case the (Eb horn) yes I'm still using an old dependent Yamaha (I have trigger finger in my left hand, and need the split thumb set up, the bottom level doesn't work for me). Sitting in a Band on either Tuba or Bass trombone I don't think about intonation I just listen and adjust as required. I do find that practice with the tuner at home gets me closer to where I should be in a band setting sooner.
Retired Army Reserve 98th Div. Band: Euphonium, Trombone, Tuba, Bass Guitar
Miraphone 186 CC
Conn 36K Sousaphone
Euphonium: Yamaha YEP-321 (modified with Euro-shank receiver with Lehman M mouthpiece)
Trombones:Yamaha 612 Bass, Conn 88H
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11511
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: tuning

Post by windshieldbug »

bloke wrote:Just about the easiest thing to do, it seems, is to "play sharp"

"better than playing out of tune" said by a lot of string players seemingly everywhere... :D
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
paulver

Re: tuning

Post by paulver »

In the past, I'd played so much piano that I was able to correctly name almost every pitch that someone played. I could even walk down a hallway and name the pitches from quite a distance, then open the door of the room that the sound was coming from, and tell the person what key they were in, and also let them know which incorrect pitches they played.

As a band director, I could pretty much do the same thing, but I wasn't always quite as accurate...... Too many variables in players. In fact, I was able to tell who was playing/practicing in the band room,(while I was outside of the band room, and at the other end of the hall of the school).

Used to drive the choral director nuts when I'd suddenly open her door, stick my head in, tell her what key she was playing/rehearsing in, name the incorrect pitch she was playing/teaching, then sing the correct one for her and the choir, shut the door and disappear!!!! All in good fun!

So.... obviously, yes, identifying pitches can be learned. I've never had perfect pitch, but if one listens enough, one can easily identify pitches via aural cues from each pitch on a wide variety of instruments.

Also.... hearing with you eyes and seeing with your ears..... good ways to identify itches. Most decent musicians do this automatically after a period of time.
PMeuph
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: tuning

Post by PMeuph »

Ken Crawford wrote:Tuning is innate. If you have to discuss the act of tuning with those playing around you things aren't going to be in tune. The most out of tune groups spend the most time tuning.
I agree with what you're going for, but I'll disagree that it's innate (Especially the definition of innate meaning a skill that your born with ). For one, none of the college groups I played with would have been in tune if a teacher hadn't stopped us and made us realize that we were out of tune and explained to us how to tune a chord.

But you're right in groups in which the conductor spends time explaining how to tune, if the individual musicians doesn't hear it, or don't realize that their bass clarinet has some sharp pitches, or that sometimes you have to lower or raise a note depending on which place you hold in the chord and that ideal way to do this is do learn to do it naturally (as opposed to intellectually) no amount of lecturing will get the group to play in tune....
Yamaha YEP-642s
Boosey & Hawkes 19" Bell Imperial EEb
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11511
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: tuning

Post by windshieldbug »

bloke wrote:I tend to believe that the MOST in-tune performances are careful and attention-to-detail performance, and not "I've got this" performances.

8)
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
PMeuph
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: tuning

Post by PMeuph »

bloke wrote:not to discount your views, but - very candidly...

When my OWN state of mind - regarding tuning - begins to become: "I've got this...I can hear what's in tune...Tuning has become second-nature to me..." THAT's when I REALLY start getting out-of-control...i.e. I catch myself wandering - not only past the ditches, but - out into the pasture.

I tend to believe that the MOST in-tune performances are careful and attention-to-detail performance, and not "I've got this" performances.
Now that I re-read what I wrote, I see what you mean and how what I meant to convey could be misconstrued. I haven't "phoned it in" or played with a "I've got this attitude" in a really long time.
I really started working on tuning after I graduated college. I sat down with drones daily with all three instruments (Tuba, trombone, euph) and I stopped on every single note. I played rochut while trying to adjust each pitch. I did scales, flex, articulation etc trying to make sure that I could hear what was in tune and what wasn't. What I meant by intellectual vs natural was more along the lines stopping on each note and thinking exactly where it is. Instead of just listening and letting the instincts I developed kick in. I may be out to lunch tuning wise, but that's not a comment I often get, in fact I usually get praised for my ability to blend with differing families or how it's easy to play with me. I tend to lip a lot on the euph as many instruments we're playing with (Bsn, Bass clar, Ten sax, tbone) tend to be out of tune, especially in the amateur context.

Most of the time, I play with different people, or with decent amateur groups. Sometimes, I just try to lock in to someone and play what they're the same pitches playing. For example, I played a parade with a really good bass trombone player two weeks ago. I just listened to him and tried to match all his pitches/ articulations/ and timing as best as I could. I didn't question if we were globally in tune to the clarinets, or if I was raising thirds (I was paying tuba so equal temperament is the way to go), I just listened and matched. Even in relation to equal temperament, there are maybe pitches we could have been out by 15 cents, but if we're in tune, then it sounds way better than if we were both 15 cents apart. (The rest of the band isn't perfect)

Dissonance and intonation quirks sound worst the closer they are. If the trombonists is 15 cents sharp (on a unisson pitch), it'll sound worst than if it was 15 cent sharp 1 octaves above.
Yamaha YEP-642s
Boosey & Hawkes 19" Bell Imperial EEb
sirtar
lurker
lurker
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:21 pm

Re: tuning

Post by sirtar »

My first teacher taught a very simple method in tuning. That teacher was Earl Hoffmann, bass trombone player in the NBC orchestra and San Antonio symphony. ( yes, somewhere in the last century) Every lesson we start with sing the scale, buzz the scale, and play the scale. Then he would take his trombone and we would match pitches. His favorite saying was always adjust. We did not have portable tuners and metronomes had keys that were used to wind them up.

i teach solfedge to all my students, teach as I was taught without the tuning machine. They sing and finger the pitch and learn to play as they sing. When I tell the student to sing through the horn..... Some of them really do.

Just so you know Some have better voices than others.

I have played in many groups where the pitch rises and falls within a measure. Sometimes within several beats of a measure. I have played in orchestras where we can start at 440ish and somehow end up at 442 or more and then back to 440ish. Staring at a tuner does not mean you are playing in tune with tthe ensemble. I still hear pop Hoffmann say, don't just sit and keep playing, adjust to what you hear.
MikeMason
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2102
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:03 am
Location: montgomery/gulf shores, Alabama
Contact:

Re: tuning

Post by MikeMason »

Yes,but,as an ensemble member who primarily plays roots of chords, don’t you feel some responsibility to hold the ensemble at 440(Or whatever yours tunes to), at least to some degree?
Pensacola Symphony
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Yamaha yfb621 with 16’’ bell,with blokepiece symphony
Eastman 6/4 with blokepiece symphony/profundo
Post Reply