Parts for Wessex tubas

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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by PMeuph »

the elephant wrote:
PMeuph wrote:Honest reply:
How often have you had to buy replacement parts for any horn?
This is very irritating to read if you have ever had to work full time in a shop that does major tuba work on a regular basis. The answer is that IT MATTERS. Maybe not to you, but it matters to those who need the parts, for whatever reason, whether you get that others need them or not. YOU don't have to buy them. *I* do. Many others will need them from time to time, and having to wait for four months to get something tends to kill business. They need to be available right away, so that you can order them and expect them to be delivered within about two weeks, which is acceptable.

Some makers keep most stuff in stock at all times. Some (ahem - Conn-Selmer, I'm talking to you, here) let stock run out completely and then make a new batch when they "get around to it".

Yeah, I know: replenishment is part of a system and stuff has to be done in some sort of order, and that has to do with the machinery being available and the people having time to do the setup work to make parts, so they tend to make them in huge batches. I, like you, I am complaining. This is to show that this issue of parts is not one for the horn owner, it is for the shops who service these horns.

I was pretty candid in my reply that I was talking out of my ***, and I make no apologies for it as this is Tubenet. I still stand by my rhetorical question.

After all: How much should availability of replacement parts be factored in to the decision of buying a horn?

I think it would be a question that should be answered after you have judged a horn on it timbre(s)/tone(s), it's tuning, it's ease of playing, the quality of the valves/slides, the quality of the finish, the feel, how appropriate the horn is for your application, the price. (and maybe several others I'm forgetting)


____
Caveat to my first answer: I do know that mouth pipes rot, valves are dropped or pitted too far gone to be salvaged, or that it's cheaper to buy a second valve trumpet slide crook than it is to fix one that is FUBARed. No, I don't have any full time experience with this in a shop and I don't have the pressure of tons of bands needing stuff yesterday, so I see why it could be a frustrating experience for you, Pachy.

That said, if you had to pick between two instruments that you felt were equal, how much would replacement parts factor into your decision. How much money would that be worth in Dollars?
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by Wyvern »

Wessex Tubas does try to keep the most commonly required parts, but there are often parts requested we don’t have - often something never having been required before. Those we generally pick up during our quarterly visits to the factory.

We are looking at setting up a much bigger parts operation to be run by Chuck Nickles, but more on that later.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by MackBrass »

To answer the question of does getting parts factor into a decision of making a purchase and the general answer is no it does not. The main reason for this is it's very rare that you will ever need parts to start with. The most common thing you may run into no matter what you purchase is losing a screw. Most screws are pretty standard and common sizes so finding them is pretty easy. Most shops will carry the basics and common things but for a shop to carry everything that could ever need to be replaced is not cost effective and this is why there are companies like Allied that specialize in parts.

One thing about parts for horns made in China is they are very accessible and easy to obtain unlike parts from the other side of the pond where some of the most expensive instruments are made can be near impossible to obtain.

Are parts really a factor in making a decision on a purchase? Not really and it really never has been and it shouldn't be. As the question has been asked previously on this thread, when was when last time you needed a part because something broke or was lost and needs to be replaced to make the horn serviceable? In my 40 years of playing I don't recall ever needing to obtain a part from the manufacture in order to get my horn back up from a system or part failure. This doesn't mean I haven't ordered parts before as I have (for my personal horns), three times to be exact. Twice from Alexander and once from Cerveny. On all three occasions the parts were so I could upgrade what I had and not due to a failure and it took what seemed to be a lifetime to get them.

Now if someone is worried that when they purchase a tuba and parts were a factor in their purchase then I think that person may never make a purchase for any brand or model. One thing about us tuba players is we are very resourceful and can fix about anything without having to rely on a manufacturer or dealer to help or get involved.

What we have done from the very start of our company over 7 years ago was make a conscious effort to stock parts ranging from screws and paddle assemblies to tuning slides and leadpipes. As time has gone on we have taken it a step further and have been able to keep full instruments on hand for parts horns so we can ensure in the desperate times we can get you back up quickly. Now one thing we do that no one to my knowledge has ever done before is we don't charge our customers for parts on our instruments for the life of the horn, not even the shipping. This includes the school that had some kid destroy a leadpipe, smashed a bell on purpose or tried to pick up a tuba by the 4th valve paddle and broke it twice as well as the mysterious missing screw that needs to be replaced. The only thing we don't provide are corks felts, bumper cord and springs as these are general maintenance issues that the owner can take care of themself.

Should every dealer do this for every model and brand they stock? I doubt it as it's not cost effective in the sense that buying parts to just keep in stock for the one time it may be needed 5 years down the line is not a good way for a business to stay profitable and stay in business. If a shop buys a part for 50 dollars today and finally gets a buyer that needs it 5 years later then sells it for 100 dollars, chances are they just lost money on that transaction. Take into account the time to purchase it, inventory it, stock it, handle it, pay and employee to handle it when needed and also pay for the space to store it, in the end it's most likely a loss. Go to any repair shop and look at the spare parts they keep on hand, it's mostly the little stuff or the stuff they need on a frequent basis.

Parts for basic repairs are very different than parts needed due to major damages or major restorations and custom work.

So in the end is it really a topic to entertain when making a decision on what brand or model to purchase? Not really and it shouldn't be. Play the horn and if you like it, just buy it as the odds will always be in your favor.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by MackBrass »

bone-a-phone wrote:Meant no offense, Tom. It's just that Wessex has warehouses in two countries, and appears to employ more people. I didn't mean square footage as a measure of size, maybe size of organization. Both organizations have excellent reputations.
It's all good no offence taken I just took it as an excuse to post something . Lol
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by UDELBR »

mctuba1 wrote:To answer the question of does getting parts factor into a decision of making a purchase and the general answer is no it does not.
I worked in a shop where they flatly refused to work on any "Chinese instruments" because they claimed they "couldn't get parts" for them. Whether true or not, the perception was there, so it does in fact play a role in making a purchase decision. Jonathan setting up an easy way to get Wessex parts would change this, at least for his instruments.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by roweenie »

mctuba1 wrote:One thing about parts for horns made in China is they are very accessible and easy to obtain unlike parts from the other side of the pond where some of the most expensive instruments are made can be near impossible to obtain
In my particular case, I don't find this statement to be accurate.

There are several European establishments that I regularly do business with - the transaction goes something like this:
I send them an email requesting parts, they email back the price, I send them the money, they send the parts, I receive them within 2 weeks, via the mail or package carrier.

With certain prominent Chinese distributors I've spoken to here in the US, the transaction goes something like this: I email looking to order a part, they ask if I bought one of their horns, I say no, they say they can't help me.

The ONE distributor that agreed to help me had to order it from China, and I had to wait 6 months for the next container to arrive.

I've ordered DOZENS of parts, MANY, MANY times from across the Atlantic in Europe, but still have yet to get one part from certain Chinese distributors, situated right here in the USA.

Just my experience, YMMV....

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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by Northernlb »

It matters and is one of the things I discuss with all of my students and their parents when they are purchasing an instrument, along with brands, styles, valves, maintenance, cost, reselling, and quality vs cost. This is a large purchase for students and parents and they should be educated on all aspects of their purchase before going ahead and purchasing an instrument.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by The Big Ben »

roweenie wrote:With certain prominent Chinese distributors I've spoken to here in the US, the transaction goes something like this: I email looking to order a part, they ask if I bought one of their horns, I say no, they say they can't help me.

The ONE distributor that agreed to help me had to order it from China, and I had to wait 6 months for the next container to arrive."
It doesn't have to be that way. I regularly get electronic parts from China. Order them on Monday, get them via China Post/USPS by the next Monday. Order/pay online usually through eBay/PayPal. There would need to be someone at the factory who takes care of that sort of stuff and a blow-up diagram of each instrument to reference the parts by the buyer. Maybe there isn't enough call for parts to dedicate those kinds of resources but that's how it's done with other items.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by roweenie »

The Big Ben wrote:
roweenie wrote:With certain prominent Chinese distributors I've spoken to here in the US, the transaction goes something like this: I email looking to order a part, they ask if I bought one of their horns, I say no, they say they can't help me.

The ONE distributor that agreed to help me had to order it from China, and I had to wait 6 months for the next container to arrive."
It doesn't have to be that way. I regularly get electronic parts from China. Order them on Monday, get them via China Post/USPS by the next Monday. Order/pay online usually through eBay/PayPal. There would need to be someone at the factory who takes care of that sort of stuff and a blow-up diagram of each instrument to reference the parts by the buyer. Maybe there isn't enough call for parts to dedicate those kinds of resources but that's how it's done with other items.

Bingo. I suspect that the problem isn't necessarily with the distributor, but the Chinese MANUFACTURERS. I theorize they have little to no interest in supporting the products they sell in this way.

If they did, they'd make it easier for their distributors to obtain their parts on an "as needed" basis, as other manufacturers regularly do.

I'm willing to be educated to the contrary, but from where I sit, this sure seems to be the case to me.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by bbocaner »

roweenie wrote: There are several European establishments that I regularly do business with - the transaction goes something like this:
I send them an email requesting parts, they email back the price, I send them the money, they send the parts, I receive them within 2 weeks, via the mail or package carrier.
I had a very expensive instrument from a prominent European conglomerate that I needed some consumables for -- springs, felts, valve guides, etc. These are things that should be available next day when you need them because they wear out with some regularity and the instrument doesn't work as well with third party parts that don't fit perfectly.

I spoke to three of that conglomerate's largest dealers in the US who couldn't or wouldn't bother to get the parts. I spoke to that conglomerate's US distributor who promised to help and got me diagrams and part numbers, but who couldn't get me the parts. I traded several emails with the president of the company who said they'd get them right to me, but it never happened. I sent a very polite message to one of their very high profile artists asking for help getting the parts which caused him to block me from following him on facebook! I talked to the company's representatives at a handful of trade shows. YEARS went by and I still didn't get them. I finally got them after more than three years of trying due to the absolutely heroic efforts of Baltimore Brass, but it was far from easy!

On the other hand, I've had incredible luck with Adams (who overnighted me parts from the Netherlands for free to make me happy) and with some other European makers, but don't assume that all European makers are that good. They are not!

I just bought my third instrument from Wessex because they are making some cool stuff at good prices and, while I haven't needed parts from them yet, I get the feeling that they will pull out all the stops to support me when I need them to.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by roweenie »

bbocaner wrote:
roweenie wrote: There are several European establishments that I regularly do business with - the transaction goes something like this:
I send them an email requesting parts, they email back the price, I send them the money, they send the parts, I receive them within 2 weeks, via the mail or package carrier.
don't assume that all European makers are that good. They are not!
Maybe not, and I didn't assume anything. But I've never had a problem, where getting Chinese parts has always been a problem (and I'm not the only one).
bbocaner wrote:I just bought my third instrument from Wessex because they are making some cool stuff at good prices and, while I haven't needed parts from them yet, I get the feeling that they will pull out all the stops to support me when I need them to.
Please read my statement a little more carefully:

roweenie wrote:
roweenie wrote:With certain prominent Chinese distributors I've spoken to here in the US, the transaction goes something like this: I email looking to order a part, they ask if I bought one of their horns, I say no, they say they can't help me.
The European manufacturers (and American ones too, for that matter) don't ask what my "motivation" is when I request parts. They tell me the price, and I buy them. End of story.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by Dan Schultz »

Things are changing and the need for parts other than springs and small stuff is going away. A few years ago I got into a screaming match with an importer because they refused to try to remedy the sharpess of their crummy 'German engineered' copy. All I asked for was a longer main slide. It's simple things that put a bad taste in your mouth forever.

For a long time I would not work on Chinese horns but as the quality improves and stupid stuff like pot-metal waterkeys go away... they will eventually pass up the others.

Parts can be difficult to get for most any US-made horn over twenty years old. I have A LOT of respect for Allied Supply. If it were not for their 'dumpster-diving' there would be few parts available. Many of the grand old names aren't so great any more.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by MackBrass »

roweenie wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:
roweenie wrote:With certain prominent Chinese distributors I've spoken to here in the US, the transaction goes something like this: I email looking to order a part, they ask if I bought one of their horns, I say no, they say they can't help me.

The ONE distributor that agreed to help me had to order it from China, and I had to wait 6 months for the next container to arrive."
It doesn't have to be that way. I regularly get electronic parts from China. Order them on Monday, get them via China Post/USPS by the next Monday. Order/pay online usually through eBay/PayPal. There would need to be someone at the factory who takes care of that sort of stuff and a blow-up diagram of each instrument to reference the parts by the buyer. Maybe there isn't enough call for parts to dedicate those kinds of resources but that's how it's done with other items.

Bingo. I suspect that the problem isn't necessarily with the distributor, but the Chinese MANUFACTURERS. I theorize they have little to no interest in supporting the products they sell in this way.

If they did, they'd make it easier for their distributors to obtain their parts on an "as needed" basis, as other manufacturers regularly do.

I'm willing to be educated to the contrary, but from where I sit, this sure seems to be the case to me.

Who have you felt with in asking for parts and what kind of parts have you needed that you couldn't get?

I and because i havle never had any issues issied what so ever in getting parts. As a matter of fact I asked for some longer main tuning slides for the 210 BBb tuba amd had them made to my specs and they shipped them out on my next order and sure enough 40 main tuning slides arrived last week all lacquered and finished ready to go.

Let me know what you need and I will get it for you. I have had customers who have purchased from other dealers call me for stuff and I just send them.

I will say parts are a pain in the a$$ but it's not due to obtaining them it's more about just getting to them and getting them out as these are not money makers but are more for just supporting the product.

Give me a call.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by WC8KCY »

Dan Schultz wrote:Things are changing and the need for parts other than springs and small stuff is going away. A few years ago I got into a screaming match with an importer because they refused to try to remedy the sharpess of their crummy 'German engineered' copy. All I asked for was a longer main slide. It's simple things that put a bad taste in your mouth forever.

For a long time I would not work on Chinese horns but as the quality improves and stupid stuff like pot-metal waterkeys go away... they will eventually pass up the others.

Parts can be difficult to get for most any US-made horn over twenty years old. I have A LOT of respect for Allied Supply. If it were not for their 'dumpster-diving' there would be few parts available. Many of the grand old names aren't so great any more.
Poring through this thread, I kept thinking of the time I brought my vintage Holton and Martin down to Mr. Schultz's for some TLC. He had the scrounge parts on hand to make both instruments OEM-correct again.

Will this ever be the case with Chinese instruments that are constantly being re-engineered? Only time will tell, but I'm a bit doubtful that, 40 years from now, vintage parts for an 40-year-old JinBao will be as easy to find as parts are today for my 90-year-old Holton.
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by PMeuph »

WC8KCY wrote: Will this ever be the case with Chinese instruments that are constantly being re-engineered? Only time will tell, but I'm a bit doubtful that, 40 years from now, vintage parts for an 40-year-old JinBao will be as easy to find as parts are today for my 90-year-old Holton.
I'm not sure all Jinbao instruments are 40 year instruments... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Parts for Wessex tubas

Post by bbocaner »

roweenie wrote:
The European manufacturers (and American ones too, for that matter) don't ask what my "motivation" is when I request parts. They tell me the price, and I buy them. End of story.
This thread isn't about whether you can get parts to tinker with or repair other makers' instruments with. It's about whether or not you can get what you need to repair and maintain an instrument purchased from one of these vendors. I'd imagine that dealing with selling parts isn't a big moneymaker -- it's a necessary evil, a customer service necessity to keep your customers happy.
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