6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Donn »

I don't do orchestra tuba, have zero interest in it. If orchestra tuba is so narrowly defined that there's an exact sound that's right for all players and all orchestras, then to be sure, it's probably one that's most easily achieved on a tuba that isn't at one size extreme or the other. One more reason to steer clear of orchestras if that's the case.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Dan Tuba »

IMO, which doesn’t mean much, outlier, baseline, or whatever...Gene Pokorny is the standard for American orchestral tuba performance. So whatever you as a player need to do to achieve the level of musicianship he consistently exhibits both in live performances and recordings, do that. For some people, that might mean different equipment, more practice, etc. There are so many other amazing professionals who are also delivering unbelievable performances utilizing 6/4 “Yorkish” tubas (Mike Sanders, Mike Roylance, Chris Olka, Craig Knox,etc) It’s certainly worth considering what type of tools these great musicians utilize to achieve that level of performance.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Walter Webb »

The windows in my house are fine tuned to rattle and buzz at certain frequencies and sound pressure levels. My Martin Mammoth rattles and buzzes the windows like a boss, which indicates it's the loudest, most contrabass heavy beast in the stable. Your windows may vary.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Steve Marcus »

why or why not 6/4 tubas? i know some people personally on the forum like Bloke, Matt Walter, and others that have said that its not their cup of tea.
If I understand correctly, Matt Walter designed the Dillon 1185 (all 4? of them that were built; they consumed too much of Matt's time?). Admittedly, I've never had the pleasure of playing one. But in photos, they certainly look like a 6/4 tuba.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by THE TUBA »

6/4 tubas are the most tubaiest tubas on the tuba market. Nobody that chose to play tuba on purpose chose so because they like small instruments, low resonance, or thin timbres. It stands to reason that the folks that like tubas also like the most tuba-y examples of tubas around.

Very few tuba players will play tuba professionally, so you might as well pick a horn that brings you the most personal enjoyment.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Wyvern »

THE TUBA wrote:6/4 tubas are the most tubaiest tubas on the tuba market.
That is very true. I first fell in love with 6/4 tubas when I got a B&S Neptune back in 2003 - and the recent introduction of the Wessex Chicago’s and Grand have renewed my love for playing such large tubas.

The feeling playing a 6/4 with that huge reserve of power and rich tubby tone is the ultimate playing the tuba, although I don’t and never have used 6/4’s for everything.

The number of old Conn 2XJ still in band use attests to the addictiveness of playing BAT’s.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote:Matt's large tubas were/are very similar in size to a Gronitz PCK and a Willson 3050.
If someone wishes to call those "6/4" they can, but (in reality) those tubas are more similar in size to a PT-6.
In fact, it does seem like more than a couple people here have in the past referred to the PCK as 6/4. I wonder if in fact the category isn't clear cut enough to really discuss in the kind of black and white terms we've been using here? That is, 6/4 tubas are not really good, nor bad, nor good for some things but not for others, nor good if you're the supreme example of elite player, etc. They're different (not to mention, different keys - I guess some of the discussion has been assuming CC, though really you know the great 6/4 tubas are BBb.)
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by bort »

I think people call the Gronitz a 6/4 because it is 6/4 shaped. Out of context, it looks huge, and like a 6/4. For that matter, the 345 and similar tubas don't look so gigantic until you see and hold it in person.

The Willson (Joe's favorite :P) to me, is about the definition of a 5/4 tuba. Very big, but not enormous.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by GC »

I've owned two 6/4's, a Cerveny 601CC and a 25J (ignoring my Monster Eb). The Cerveny was a nightmare, difficult to play in tune and impossible (for me) to play at a reasonable volume level. The 25J could rattle a room or play at whisper level and worked just fine in quintets. All big tubas are not the same, and they do not have the same liabilities and problems.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by DouglasJB »

I recently got to see one of the new 6/4 CC York Models and a PCK in the same room, they seemed quite similar in size in my opinion
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Mark Horne »

I'm not sure I ever understood the description of the PCK as a 5/4 tuba. Aside from being an inch or two shorter, my PCK is every bit as big as my Neptune, and it fits well in the Cronkhite gig bag that was specifically made for the Neptune. Even though it is not as heavy as other horns of the same size, it feels plenty big sitting on your lap. It is capable of producing some color when desired, so perhaps that's where the 5/4 designation originates.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Peach »

Mark Horne wrote:I'm not sure I ever understood the description of the PCK as a 5/4 tuba. Aside from being an inch or two shorter, my PCK is every bit as big as my Neptune, and it fits well in the Cronkhite gig bag that was specifically made for the Neptune. Even though it is not as heavy as other horns of the same size, it feels plenty big sitting on your lap. It is capable of producing some color when desired, so perhaps that's where the 5/4 designation originates.
I've had a Neptune and a 345 side-by-side and there is a real difference in fatness between the two. Both big tubas to be sure. The Neptune uses PT6 bows and possibly even bottom bow I heard, it just has a bigger bell.
The X/4 designations are not fixed, you could line up 100 tubas of various sizes in order and where the class distinctions fall is anyone's guess...
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Donn »

Just for reference, bandmaster did line up some of the largest a ways back, in a collage:
Image

In the same thread, "Rick Denny" proposes that we should use names rather than fractions, and suggests "Grand Orchestral" for this group. Or "Kaiser" for "Berlin style" tubas of that size.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by happyroman »

Dan Tuba wrote:IMO, which doesn’t mean much, outlier, baseline, or whatever...Gene Pokorny is the standard for American orchestral tuba performance. So whatever you as a player need to do to achieve the level of musicianship he consistently exhibits both in live performances and recordings, do that. For some people, that might mean different equipment, more practice, etc. There are so many other amazing professionals who are also delivering unbelievable performances utilizing 6/4 “Yorkish” tubas (Mike Sanders, Mike Roylance, Chris Olka, Craig Knox,etc) It’s certainly worth considering what type of tools these great musicians utilize to achieve that level of performance.
I agree with this completely. I will say that Gene is also not playing just ANY 6/4 tuba, but is playing one of the two original Yorks that were owned by Arnold Jacobs. It should be pointed out that the Conn Helleburg that Jake used for most repertoire had an inner rim diameter of 1.26" with a deep funnel cup. Many MPs used by today's players have a wider cup (1.28" to 1.30" or more). His sound was quite unique in that it not only had a lot of fundamental in it (which provided the foundation for the brass section) but also was rich in overtones (which allowed the trombones and upper brass to easily lock in with his sound).

There is a reason why tuba manufacturers have been trying to create 6/4 tubas that replicate the sound that one can get out of the Yorks. And they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it because so many are in use among professional symphony orchestra tubists. Off the top of my head, the only player I can think of that doesn't use one of the piston valve York models is Jeff Anderson in SF, who uses a 5/4 rotary valve B&S PT-6 (which according to the linked Custom Music web page, is actually described as a York style tuba).

https://www.customtubas.com/products.php?cat=44" target="_blank

When Hirsbrunner made the first copies of the Yorks, Harvey Phillips thought it was interesting. He said that the Yorks should really be called Jakes because Jake (i.e., the performer) was responsible for that sound, not the tuba. He said that Jake would sound like Jake no matter what instrument he played and people did not understand that. He felt that people wanted a York copy because they thought it would make them sound like Jake.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by TUbajohn20J »

Wyvern wrote: The number of old Conn 2XJ still in band use attests to the addictiveness of playing BAT’s.
Agree. There are so many of them still getting daily use in bands across the country. 6/4's are just fun to play and those Conn 2XJ horns are very nimble believe it or not. One could use it in a quintet and I have done so in the past many times. To me, they are more versatile and I could use one as an all around tuba because they take very little effort to support a big band and can do well in a small chamber ensemble. It's harder to get the best of both worlds like that with a 4/4.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by bort »

TUbajohn20J wrote:
Wyvern wrote: The number of old Conn 2XJ still in band use attests to the addictiveness of playing BAT’s.
Agree. There are so many of them still getting daily use in bands across the country. 6/4's are just fun to play and those Conn 2XJ horns are very nimble believe it or not. One could use it in a quintet and I have done so in the past many times. To me, they are more versatile and I could use one as an all around tuba because they take very little effort to support a big band and can do well in a small chamber ensemble. It's harder to get the best of both worlds like that with a 4/4.
In 20+ years of tuba playing, I don't think I've ever run across a Conn 2XJ outside of TubaChristmas. :| :?:
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Ken Crawford »

happyroman wrote:
Dan Tuba wrote:IMO, which doesn’t mean much, outlier, baseline, or whatever...Gene Pokorny is the standard for American orchestral tuba performance. So whatever you as a player need to do to achieve the level of musicianship he consistently exhibits both in live performances and recordings, do that. For some people, that might mean different equipment, more practice, etc. There are so many other amazing professionals who are also delivering unbelievable performances utilizing 6/4 “Yorkish” tubas (Mike Sanders, Mike Roylance, Chris Olka, Craig Knox,etc) It’s certainly worth considering what type of tools these great musicians utilize to achieve that level of performance.
I agree with this completely. I will say that Gene is also not playing just ANY 6/4 tuba, but is playing one of the two original Yorks that were owned by Arnold Jacobs. It should be pointed out that the Conn Helleburg that Jake used for most repertoire had an inner rim diameter of 1.26" with a deep funnel cup. Many MPs used by today's players have a wider cup (1.28" to 1.30" or more). His sound was quite unique in that it not only had a lot of fundamental in it (which provided the foundation for the brass section) but also was rich in overtones (which allowed the trombones and upper brass to easily lock in with his sound).

There is a reason why tuba manufacturers have been trying to create 6/4 tubas that replicate the sound that one can get out of the Yorks. And they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it because so many are in use among professional symphony orchestra tubists. Off the top of my head, the only player I can think of that doesn't use one of the piston valve York models is Jeff Anderson in SF, who uses a 5/4 rotary valve B&S PT-6 (which according to the linked Custom Music web page, is actually described as a York style tuba).

https://www.customtubas.com/products.php?cat=44" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

When Hirsbrunner made the first copies of the Yorks, Harvey Phillips thought it was interesting. He said that the Yorks should really be called Jakes because Jake (i.e., the performer) was responsible for that sound, not the tuba. He said that Jake would sound like Jake no matter what instrument he played and people did not understand that. He felt that people wanted a York copy because they thought it would make them sound like Jake.
You're missing the point. It's not just about the tuba player and the tuba he's holding. All those guys playing Yorkophones in professional orchestras, are playing in professional orchestras. It takes a professional ensemble to make the most of a 6/4 tuba. It's funny that a 6/4 tuba is in some ways LESS than a 4/4 tuba.

Lets talk amps and volts. Volts are like the speed of the water flowing in a river. Amps are are volume of water in a river. So you can have a small but fast flowing river (high volts, low amps), or a huge and slow flowing river (low volts, high amps).

Now tubas and sound: A 4/4 tuba produces a high voltage, lower amperage sound. A 6/4 tuba produces a low voltage, high amperage sound.

Voltage wants to flow, it wants to get to ground really badly! It'll even jump or arc a gap to reach ground. Voltage will push through a crappy electrical conductor, just like a 4/4 tuba's sound will push through or survive a crappy ensemble.

Amps don't really care about travelling. Even if there are lots of amps (huge 6/4 sound), they aren't going anywhere by themselves. Amps are lazy. 6/4 tubas need an infusion of volts to get out into the hall. The best source of voltage is a trombone section in an orchestra.

So, a 6/4 can achieve some magic that a 4/4 tuba cannot. That is, with the right player, in the right ensemble, you can have high voltage AND high amperage! You can't boost the amps of a 4/4, but you can boost the volts of a 6/4.

The sub-par ensembles many (most?) tuba players play in are a crappy electrical/sound conductor. These ensembles are a poor setting for a 6/4 tuba.

You may not agree, and that is ok. (But I'm right) :tuba: <---this is a 5/4 tuba btw.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Donn »

Ken Crawford wrote:Now tubas and sound: A 4/4 tuba produces a high voltage, lower amperage sound. A 6/4 tuba produces a low voltage, high amperage sound.
You could be right - I can't hear my Holton 109 at all right now, and it's just downstairs - but then I have a King 1240 down there, and I can't hear it either. Do I need to turn them on, or something?

Seriously, the player does count for something. While I agree that there's a difference in sound and there's something to your analogy, it's far too simple to be really useful and not all of it is apt - Ohm's law doesn't really capture the relationship between tuba and the trombone section. Then the general tone quality isn't as black and white, and the particular tubas, mouthpieces, players, enter into it to confuse the issue even more.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by chronolith »

I have owned both a Neptune and a PCK. The Neptune is a "bigger" tuba in my hands for sure, and that is part of the reason I ended up moving away from it. It was wonderful at what it did well - can't think of any other horn that sounds like THAT, but ultimately not as flexible as I needed it to be (and not own 10 instruments).

I settled on a PCK because it wanders happily into BAT territory when I need it to but does not feel like a beast to be wrangled, aching back, slides pumping everywhere. In that way it is a good teacher of sorts. It does not reward your for pushing too hard. It's light and easy to hold and retains its German sound heritage despite being an entry for competition into the CC piston 6/4 arms race.

Regardless of size and the highly dubious sizing designations we use, it was the horn I sounded most like me on. Like the tuba in my head.

I think Gene Pokorny said in an interview once that tuba players do not have delusions of grandeur, but delusions of sufficiency. For that reason we make the determination that to make a big sound means playing a big tuba. I think many of us live in fear of not being able to "support the entire ensemble" all by ourselves. Oh well.

One thing is for sure. It is easier now to get a good quality 6/4 than it has ever been in the past. I love that companies are making that happen for us. There will certainly be more 6/4 tubas than people who can play them well though. For me the real decision for the big horn was about listening to my orchestra recordings and deciding if I liked what I heard (or if I could be heard at all). I finally got what I wanted with the PCK*. And to be honest I don't really give a rat's posterior whether it earns a 6 or not.

* - I use Bloke's Orchestra Grand with it.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???

Post by Wes Hardin »

Ken Crawford wrote:
happyroman wrote:
Dan Tuba wrote:IMO, which doesn’t mean much, outlier, baseline, or whatever...Gene Pokorny is the standard for American orchestral tuba performance. So whatever you as a player need to do to achieve the level of musicianship he consistently exhibits both in live performances and recordings, do that. For some people, that might mean different equipment, more practice, etc. There are so many other amazing professionals who are also delivering unbelievable performances utilizing 6/4 “Yorkish” tubas (Mike Sanders, Mike Roylance, Chris Olka, Craig Knox,etc) It’s certainly worth considering what type of tools these great musicians utilize to achieve that level of performance.
I agree with this completely. I will say that Gene is also not playing just ANY 6/4 tuba, but is playing one of the two original Yorks that were owned by Arnold Jacobs. It should be pointed out that the Conn Helleburg that Jake used for most repertoire had an inner rim diameter of 1.26" with a deep funnel cup. Many MPs used by today's players have a wider cup (1.28" to 1.30" or more). His sound was quite unique in that it not only had a lot of fundamental in it (which provided the foundation for the brass section) but also was rich in overtones (which allowed the trombones and upper brass to easily lock in with his sound).

There is a reason why tuba manufacturers have been trying to create 6/4 tubas that replicate the sound that one can get out of the Yorks. And they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it because so many are in use among professional symphony orchestra tubists. Off the top of my head, the only player I can think of that doesn't use one of the piston valve York models is Jeff Anderson in SF, who uses a 5/4 rotary valve B&S PT-6 (which according to the linked Custom Music web page, is actually described as a York style tuba).

https://www.customtubas.com/products.php?cat=44" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

When Hirsbrunner made the first copies of the Yorks, Harvey Phillips thought it was interesting. He said that the Yorks should really be called Jakes because Jake (i.e., the performer) was responsible for that sound, not the tuba. He said that Jake would sound like Jake no matter what instrument he played and people did not understand that. He felt that people wanted a York copy because they thought it would make them sound like Jake.
You're missing the point. It's not just about the tuba player and the tuba he's holding. All those guys playing Yorkophones in professional orchestras, are playing in professional orchestras. It takes a professional ensemble to make the most of a 6/4 tuba. It's funny that a 6/4 tuba is in some ways LESS than a 4/4 tuba.

Lets talk amps and volts. Volts are like the speed of the water flowing in a river. Amps are are volume of water in a river. So you can have a small but fast flowing river (high volts, low amps), or a huge and slow flowing river (low volts, high amps).

Now tubas and sound: A 4/4 tuba produces a high voltage, lower amperage sound. A 6/4 tuba produces a low voltage, high amperage sound.

Voltage wants to flow, it wants to get to ground really badly! It'll even jump or arc a gap to reach ground. Voltage will push through a crappy electrical conductor, just like a 4/4 tuba's sound will push through or survive a crappy ensemble.

Amps don't really care about travelling. Even if there are lots of amps (huge 6/4 sound), they aren't going anywhere by themselves. Amps are lazy. 6/4 tubas need an infusion of volts to get out into the hall. The best source of voltage is a trombone section in an orchestra.

So, a 6/4 can achieve some magic that a 4/4 tuba cannot. That is, with the right player, in the right ensemble, you can have high voltage AND high amperage! You can't boost the amps of a 4/4, but you can boost the volts of a 6/4.

The sub-par ensembles many (most?) tuba players play in are a crappy electrical/sound conductor. These ensembles are a poor setting for a 6/4 tuba.

You may not agree, and that is ok. (But I'm right) :tuba: <---this is a 5/4 tuba btw.
Now that is an impressive analogy, Ive never thought in those terms.
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