6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
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- bugler
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6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Hello all,
wanted some input and maybe discussion on why or why not 6/4 tubas? i know some people personally on the forum like Bloke, Matt Walter, and others that have said that its not their cup of tea. they have very lightly explained the general gist of why they do not particularly like using or owning 6/4 tubas, but why do we see many professionals use them?
The PT6 has won the most auditions, yet i have seen many people after winning the job switch to another instrument, even the same people. does the PT6 not perform as well with an orchestra as it does as an audition horn?
Are people trying to move away from the 6/4 sound concept or do you feel its evolving into something else? why are people always going back to BATs, then downsizing, then looking for bigger horns?
Do you think 5/4 tubas (pt6,1293,Gronitz, tune, Mrp) can do a better job or have a nicer balance with an orchestra than 6/4 yorktype tuba?
what are some of your experiences and how does your sound concept reciprocate with the equipment you use in an orchestral setting?
lots of questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around what i hear and what i see (especially in the LA area), and also trying to set up for a stream of ideas from likeminded gentlemen who spend most of their day blowing on a tuba.
wanted some input and maybe discussion on why or why not 6/4 tubas? i know some people personally on the forum like Bloke, Matt Walter, and others that have said that its not their cup of tea. they have very lightly explained the general gist of why they do not particularly like using or owning 6/4 tubas, but why do we see many professionals use them?
The PT6 has won the most auditions, yet i have seen many people after winning the job switch to another instrument, even the same people. does the PT6 not perform as well with an orchestra as it does as an audition horn?
Are people trying to move away from the 6/4 sound concept or do you feel its evolving into something else? why are people always going back to BATs, then downsizing, then looking for bigger horns?
Do you think 5/4 tubas (pt6,1293,Gronitz, tune, Mrp) can do a better job or have a nicer balance with an orchestra than 6/4 yorktype tuba?
what are some of your experiences and how does your sound concept reciprocate with the equipment you use in an orchestral setting?
lots of questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around what i hear and what i see (especially in the LA area), and also trying to set up for a stream of ideas from likeminded gentlemen who spend most of their day blowing on a tuba.
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- Ken Crawford
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
A 6/4 doesn't typically have enough color in its sound to project very well on it's own. That 6/4 sound is reliant on the trombone section, primarily the bass trombone for color and projection. If you are playing in an orchestra with a mediocre trombone section and a weak bass trombonist that doesn't play particularly in tune, your big 6/4 sound isn't going to make it past the first row. Why do so many pros use a 6/4? Because they are playing with pro trombones. A 6/4 tuba is a tool for the pros. In less than competent hands, and/or in a so so ensemble, a 6/4 is just a big fluffy mess. A good player with a smaller tuba can hit the back row without any help from the trombones because he has his own sufficiently colorful sound.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Bigger isn't better. Bigger is just bigger.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Bigger isn't better, but it is different. You may have various reasons why you want to sound this way, or that; some of them more practical, some more artistic (if that's allowed!)
The best way to know for yourself, is to play them, back to back. Any size tuba can sound great, and you can't find the sound for you, by asking what's good for someone else. (I'm speaking about the moment - of course, if you can manage to have more than one tuba, you can choose differently in another moment.) Play them, back to back, and you'll know what it's about.
Then it's up to you to make it work. If you think a 4/4 tuba can't do this, or a 6/4 tuba can't do that, then I guess you have to be one of the 5/4 weenies who can't make up their mind. Ha ha, just kidding ... Think a 6/4 tuba can't be heard? There must be thousands of players out there with Conn 20Js etc. proving you wrong, not to mention the many orchestral players (with and without pro trombone sections), but it's something you need to work on. They say the same thing about 4/4 tubas, don't they? - not big enough to support a big ensemble, bla bla. Something you need to work on, getting the big sound, but people do it.
If you're headed in a direction where you see no one playing an instrument like yours, then you have to wonder how that's going to turn out, but as long as it isn't like that, the choice is really yours.
The best way to know for yourself, is to play them, back to back. Any size tuba can sound great, and you can't find the sound for you, by asking what's good for someone else. (I'm speaking about the moment - of course, if you can manage to have more than one tuba, you can choose differently in another moment.) Play them, back to back, and you'll know what it's about.
Then it's up to you to make it work. If you think a 4/4 tuba can't do this, or a 6/4 tuba can't do that, then I guess you have to be one of the 5/4 weenies who can't make up their mind. Ha ha, just kidding ... Think a 6/4 tuba can't be heard? There must be thousands of players out there with Conn 20Js etc. proving you wrong, not to mention the many orchestral players (with and without pro trombone sections), but it's something you need to work on. They say the same thing about 4/4 tubas, don't they? - not big enough to support a big ensemble, bla bla. Something you need to work on, getting the big sound, but people do it.
If you're headed in a direction where you see no one playing an instrument like yours, then you have to wonder how that's going to turn out, but as long as it isn't like that, the choice is really yours.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
The above paragraph is the best description of the 6/4 tuba that I have come across. I purchased a Holton "Mammoth" 3 valve BBb 6/4 tuba two years ago from Lee Stofer. I loved the horn and its sound, however the effort needed to produce the sound as well as realizing that at 58, this is a younger person's instrument has now returned the horn back to Iowa. The two smaller horns that I play, a Boosey&Hawkes upright BBb and a King recording bass, both reach the back row with much less effort than the Holton took. I wish I had purchased one much earlier. They are awesome horns in the right hands. My experience with them is most likely due to operator error more than anything else. Your mileage may vary.lost wrote:This this and this.Ken Crawford wrote:A 6/4 doesn't typically have enough color in its sound to project very well on it's own. That 6/4 sound is reliant on the trombone section, primarily the bass trombone for color and projection. If you are playing in an orchestra with a mediocre trombone section and a weak bass trombonist that doesn't play particularly in tune, your big 6/4 sound isn't going to make it past the first row. Why do so many pros use a 6/4? Because they are playing with pro trombones. A 6/4 tuba is a tool for the pros. In less than competent hands, and/or in a so so ensemble, a 6/4 is just a big fluffy mess. A good player with a smaller tuba can hit the back row without any help from the trombones because he has his own sufficiently colorful sound.
Last edited by roughrider on Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
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1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
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Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Like most of us will play an 800+ seat auditorium outside of Tuba Christmas!!
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
I use a 5/4 Rudolf Meinl for most everything from comminity band to brass banding. With a .800"+ bore it is essentally a 6/4 horn. I have smaller horns but I find myself trying to get the same big, round sound out of them.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
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Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
In an orchestra?? In an orchestra you have ACTUAL basses. So why would you play a tuba designed to sound like one.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
When I played my PT-4 everybody said that my sound was bright and on the quiet side, with little low end power. When I play my yorkbrunner everybody says "damn, how big is that thing??" or "jesus." I find that the Meinl Weston Ursus has a sound comparable to many 6/4s in terms of breadth of sound, all while being a 4/4. Can we stop this whole debate on 5/4 vs 6/4 and go back to more important issues like laquer vs silver plating.
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John Packer 377s w/Parker Cantabile
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
A few observations:
1. It is always stunning to me how a 6/4 tuba can fill an empty concert hall.
2. It is always more stunning to me to hear how difficult it is to hear that same tuba when it is being played within an orchestra.
3. When not played directly after a 6/4 tuba, a 4/4 or 5/4 tuba sounds perfectly massive in a room by itself.
4. When played in an orchestra, a 4/4 or 5/4 tuba is 90%-95% as present as a 6/4 tuba would be in 90%-95% of the situations you'll find yourself in, especially outside of major orchestras. (I.e, most of the time, the audience will have the same experience if you are playing a 188 or a York copy - remember, they generally don't come to scrutinize the tuba).
5. 100% of people outside of the top, top players manage intonation, articulation, tone color, and tone consistency better on 4/4 or 5/4 horns than 6/4 horns.
6. The current 15-or-so-year-old player who is going to run the table on major orchestra auditions in 15-20 years and be that small percentage of player who makes good use of a 6/4 tuba needs to learn how to play said 6/4 tuba prior to that run of auditions and would not win that audition on the 4/4 tuba he currently plays.
7. Everyone makes their decisions for their own reasons, and everyone has their own wants and needs. We would all ideally be playing the horn that we feel will get us to the next level and/or provide us with the most satisfying day-to-day playing and practicing experience. For some people that is spending 20-30k on a 6/4 horn. For some people it is downsizing from a 6/4 horn. For some people it is making the best sound they can on the horn they have because selling/buying/trading is more of a hassle than is worth it.
Personally, I don't need the PT6 I currently play. It's bigger than I need, it's more of a hassle to haul around than I need, and I never learned how to take apart rotary valves so it's an upkeep hassle for me. But I make the sound that I like when I play it. So I keep it. When my tastes or priorities change, I'll sell it and get something that makes me equally as happy.
1. It is always stunning to me how a 6/4 tuba can fill an empty concert hall.
2. It is always more stunning to me to hear how difficult it is to hear that same tuba when it is being played within an orchestra.
3. When not played directly after a 6/4 tuba, a 4/4 or 5/4 tuba sounds perfectly massive in a room by itself.
4. When played in an orchestra, a 4/4 or 5/4 tuba is 90%-95% as present as a 6/4 tuba would be in 90%-95% of the situations you'll find yourself in, especially outside of major orchestras. (I.e, most of the time, the audience will have the same experience if you are playing a 188 or a York copy - remember, they generally don't come to scrutinize the tuba).
5. 100% of people outside of the top, top players manage intonation, articulation, tone color, and tone consistency better on 4/4 or 5/4 horns than 6/4 horns.
6. The current 15-or-so-year-old player who is going to run the table on major orchestra auditions in 15-20 years and be that small percentage of player who makes good use of a 6/4 tuba needs to learn how to play said 6/4 tuba prior to that run of auditions and would not win that audition on the 4/4 tuba he currently plays.
7. Everyone makes their decisions for their own reasons, and everyone has their own wants and needs. We would all ideally be playing the horn that we feel will get us to the next level and/or provide us with the most satisfying day-to-day playing and practicing experience. For some people that is spending 20-30k on a 6/4 horn. For some people it is downsizing from a 6/4 horn. For some people it is making the best sound they can on the horn they have because selling/buying/trading is more of a hassle than is worth it.
Personally, I don't need the PT6 I currently play. It's bigger than I need, it's more of a hassle to haul around than I need, and I never learned how to take apart rotary valves so it's an upkeep hassle for me. But I make the sound that I like when I play it. So I keep it. When my tastes or priorities change, I'll sell it and get something that makes me equally as happy.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
My favorite comment after a concert one time was "wow, the basses were really loud." I literally burst out laughing...TheGoyWonder wrote:In an orchestra?? In an orchestra you have ACTUAL basses. So why would you play a tuba designed to sound like one.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
As a trombone player, I’ll just add that there’s no better feeling when I’ve played bass bone in an orchestra, and I’m getting that perfect blend with the tuba, where the trombone is putting the edge on the note, and the tuba is providing the fullness of the sound. I’ve had that same feeling playing the first trombone part and blending with the first trumpet. Of course, it doesn’t work that way in every ensemble, but when it does, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
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1958 BBb Martin "Mammoth"
& a handful of 'bones
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
The majority of TubeNetters have to agree, without hearing from a student's current teacher, that a 6/4 CC is appropriate for the student before Professor Sicks agrees to teach them. As yet, no one has met those lofty standards.bloke wrote:Who is this Petey Sicks, and why aren't more people studying with them?
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Was not the 6/4 tubas originally developed to provide something of the broad rich tone of the Jumbo sousaphone found in bands such as Sousa's in a tuba form?
The richness of tone of a 6/4 is the ultimate in the tuba world. The player does not have to put in a huge effort to put a foundation under any band like no other. In a large concert band situation, I think they are the ultimate tuba. Myself, I can support a 50 piece concert band alone using a 6/4.
In the modern world where we are surrounded by amplified music and have sub-woofers on our home entertainment system, the 6/4 provides that depth that modern ears appreciate. It is nice to recreate the music of the past, delicate and transparent, but if bands and orchestras want a young audience, then the 6/4 provides a satisfying sound to the modern ear.
Now coming specifically to orchestras, a 6/4 will not be suitable for every ensemble or situation. A 6/4 will no doubt overpower most community orchestras and will not be suitable for smaller orchestras, or those playing in smaller halls. I am sure the popularity of 6/4 in American orchestras is down to the size of the halls and the power of the brass sections in many. I think it is mistaken to say top professional tubists should not be using. It is up to the conductor to say if he thinks a 6/4 is too much, as standing out front they are best placed to know the balance they want from the ensemble.
I also think it is mistaken to say 6/4's don't project. That may well be an unsuitable mouthpiece is being used, or the person behind the mouthpiece is playing it wrong. Personally, I find shallower mouthpieces work best for me with 6/4 tubas. The tuba gives the breath and the mouthpiece the definition. While contrary, playing an Eb I will often use a deep mouthpiece to try to increase breath.
So to summarise the 6/4 is not suitable in every situation - it is not an all-purpose tuba, but it has an important role particularly in top orchestras and large concert bands.
The richness of tone of a 6/4 is the ultimate in the tuba world. The player does not have to put in a huge effort to put a foundation under any band like no other. In a large concert band situation, I think they are the ultimate tuba. Myself, I can support a 50 piece concert band alone using a 6/4.
In the modern world where we are surrounded by amplified music and have sub-woofers on our home entertainment system, the 6/4 provides that depth that modern ears appreciate. It is nice to recreate the music of the past, delicate and transparent, but if bands and orchestras want a young audience, then the 6/4 provides a satisfying sound to the modern ear.
Now coming specifically to orchestras, a 6/4 will not be suitable for every ensemble or situation. A 6/4 will no doubt overpower most community orchestras and will not be suitable for smaller orchestras, or those playing in smaller halls. I am sure the popularity of 6/4 in American orchestras is down to the size of the halls and the power of the brass sections in many. I think it is mistaken to say top professional tubists should not be using. It is up to the conductor to say if he thinks a 6/4 is too much, as standing out front they are best placed to know the balance they want from the ensemble.
I also think it is mistaken to say 6/4's don't project. That may well be an unsuitable mouthpiece is being used, or the person behind the mouthpiece is playing it wrong. Personally, I find shallower mouthpieces work best for me with 6/4 tubas. The tuba gives the breath and the mouthpiece the definition. While contrary, playing an Eb I will often use a deep mouthpiece to try to increase breath.
So to summarise the 6/4 is not suitable in every situation - it is not an all-purpose tuba, but it has an important role particularly in top orchestras and large concert bands.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Sorry Ken, I cant agree with you there. Just listen to Gene Pokorny and many other top orchestral tubists to hear how a 6/4 can be colored. If the sound is a big fluffy mess, then the player is using a too large deep mouthpiece with not enough definition to their tone. A matter of rubbish in - bigger rubbish out.Ken Crawford wrote:A 6/4 doesn't typically have enough color in its sound to project very well on it's own. That 6/4 sound is reliant on the trombone section, primarily the bass trombone for color and projection. If you are playing in an orchestra with a mediocre trombone section and a weak bass trombonist that doesn't play particularly in tune, your big 6/4 sound isn't going to make it past the first row. Why do so many pros use a 6/4? Because they are playing with pro trombones. A 6/4 tuba is a tool for the pros. In less than competent hands, and/or in a so so ensemble, a 6/4 is just a big fluffy mess. A good player with a smaller tuba can hit the back row without any help from the trombones because he has his own sufficiently colorful sound.
I equate this with cars, a 6/4 is like a big powerful car - it requires a highly competent driver. A 4/4 is like a smaller car and is a bit more forgiving of driver error.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Gene Pokorny is an outlier, not a baseline.Wyvern wrote:Just listen to Gene Pokorny
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
But shows how a 6/4 can sound. If other people cannot make such a sound with a 6/4, then it is down to the player and not the tuba.Ken Crawford wrote:Gene Pokorny is an outlier, not a baseline.Wyvern wrote:Just listen to Gene Pokorny
In the UK we have a saying - "Bad workman blame their tools"
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
Jonathan, I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with Ken, it seems to me you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.Wyvern wrote:But shows how a 6/4 can sound. If other people cannot make such a sound with a 6/4, then it is down to the player and not the tuba.Ken Crawford wrote:Gene Pokorny is an outlier, not a baseline.Wyvern wrote:Just listen to Gene Pokorny
In the UK we have a saying - "Bad workman blame their tools"
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- Wyvern
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, but no tuba in any key or any size should be condemned because some people cannot play it well.
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Re: 6/4 tubas: some hate, some love, and a lot of ???
I'm not condemning 6/4 tubas. They have a place, just not many places. We don't have to agree, it's ok. By all means, if somebody wants a giant shiny tuba they should buy one.