To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question... Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk
Forum rules
Reminder: "Go fund me" requests are not allowed and should be reported. All requests will be deleted.

To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Peach » Fri May 04, 2018 3:02 am

Curious about the addition of a Kranz on a given tuba bell.
Mira 191 has a Kranz and obviously rotors but the bell and bows are (I think) identical to the 1291 (Bb) with pistons and no Kranz.

There is a tradition for older tubas from European makers to have a Kranz but I always thought that was more to stabilise an otherwise very thin bell 'edge' from the making process.

So is the Kranz on the Mira 191doing anything much or is it more cosmetic?

And why is it extremely rare to find a Kranz on a piston horn?

Just pondering...
Thanks,
MP
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby pjv » Fri May 04, 2018 4:08 am

I think you hit the nail on the head; moreover, the 191 kranz looks like a fake kranz, slapped onto one side of the bell. Cosmetic, like you said, and not a real kranz.
As far as I can tell, the 191 is an American-style tuba but with rotary valves. Same bore as the 1291, same bows, and most important, same short US-tuba style mouthpipe.
You don't see a kranz on a piston tuba because piston tuba's aren't fabricated with German-style bells, even if they are German made.

Hopefully someone who REALLY knows will chime in. These are my conclusions from my limited observations. A technician has way more experience in this matter.

Btw, are you happy with your 191?
User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Peach » Fri May 04, 2018 4:16 am

Hi. I was, for a short time, looking at getting a lovely 5v goldbrass 191, but the deal wasn't to be.
This weekend I'm getting a 5v 1291 Bb however =)
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby oedipoes » Fri May 04, 2018 5:58 am

Peach wrote:Hi. I was, for a short time, looking at getting a lovely 5v goldbrass 191, but the deal wasn't to be.
This weekend I'm getting a 5v 1291 Bb however =)


To replace the PBK, or in addition? (just curious)
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Peach » Sat May 05, 2018 12:45 am

Hey. So the PBK sadly went back for return. When I tried it out in the factory I loved it. It was raw brass. I had it plated and the leadpipe adjusted before I had them send it to me. Anyway, when I got it, it was mostly excellent, but there were some notes that were a real problem. I couldn't figure out what was causing it and had a couple of techs look it over with borescope etc etc. Anyway, in the end to avoid tearing it down at my expense and trying a bunch of leadpioes etc, Dietrich and I worked a deal to send it back. I'm sure someone's happily playing it now... =)
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Peach » Sat May 05, 2018 12:46 am

PS. Anyone have any thoughts on bell Kranz?
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby windshieldbug » Sat May 05, 2018 1:07 am

Thought:
I have horns with and without and my suspicion is that it works just like lacquer, silver and raw brass. It DOES, in fact, make a difference within a 10’ radius, but any further than that it’s simply the bore profile. :shock:
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
 
Posts: 10890
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Peach » Sat May 05, 2018 2:32 am

windshieldbug wrote:Thought:
I have horns with and without and my suspicion is that it works just like lacquer, silver and raw brass. It DOES, in fact, make a difference within a 10’ radius, but any further than that it’s simply the bore profile. :shock:


?
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby oedipoes » Sat May 05, 2018 2:44 am

To your question, I think it does make a difference...
The Miraphone Hagen for example is without kranz for some reason.
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby pjv » Sat May 05, 2018 3:35 am

User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby pjv » Sat May 05, 2018 3:52 am

maybe a more informative read
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44946&start=0
User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Dan Schultz » Sat May 05, 2018 8:58 am

I've always regarded a garland as just a different way to build a bell rim. I'm just guessing that you can order from Miraphone either way... especially in the case of the 1291 and 191 horns which I believe share the same bell profile. The 'fake' garland could be and afterthought to knock off overtones.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
http://thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Bohm & Meinl helicon, Marzan BBb 'slant-rotor', King 2341, Alphorn, BBb cimbasso, etc.
User avatar
Dan Schultz
TubaTinker
TubaTinker
 
Posts: 10194
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:46 pm
Location: Newburgh, Indiana

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby bloke » Sat May 05, 2018 9:06 am

In Mainz, they always use a kranz.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 39705
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby imperialbari » Sat May 05, 2018 12:42 pm

Within the horn world the Kranz originally was used to prevent instruments with thin, hammered bell flares from breaking up too early in the dynamic bandwidth.

Klaus
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:47 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby bloke » Sat May 05, 2018 4:39 pm

...and I always thought that the purpose was to add strength to a brass instrument's bell's edge. :shock:
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 39705
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby Dan Schultz » Sat May 05, 2018 5:16 pm

bloke wrote:In Mainz, they always use a kranz.


I would have said that instead of 'garland' but my stupid spell check would not let me!
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
http://thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Bohm & Meinl helicon, Marzan BBb 'slant-rotor', King 2341, Alphorn, BBb cimbasso, etc.
User avatar
Dan Schultz
TubaTinker
TubaTinker
 
Posts: 10194
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:46 pm
Location: Newburgh, Indiana

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby imperialbari » Sat May 05, 2018 6:16 pm

bloke wrote:...and I always thought that the purpose was to add strength to a brass instrument's bell's edge. :shock:


That is a positive side effect.

Spun bells have thicker walls at the edge than where the bell is joined to the stack. Less need for a garland there.

Bells with gussets may also be hammered, but the thinning is less radical. That was the old British way of making low brass bells. No garlands in that tradition.

Also in other places there is a connection between acoustic design and structural strengthening.

While I waited 3 months for my Besson 981 to be made during the spring of 1999, I loaned a sample of same size Eb tuba out of Besson’s 700-series. No compensating system and less wire attached to the outside of the 1st branchand top bow. The benefit for the model intended for students was less weight and an easier response. Only the range was very uneven. Ab on top of the bass stave would be much louder than the surrounding notes without me pushing that note at all.

The 981 has the wire going higher up onto the top bow, and does not have these uneven notes sticking out. It is a little less responsive, but it then is much more controllable. Besson used pneumatic expansion and forming inside a mold for their bows. That is bound to let the outer perimeter of the bows have thinner walls than the inner perimeters, so the guard strip would dampen theamplitude of thin metal very easily set into oscillation.

Same toes for bottom bow guards and for the guards and wires on the fat knee of sousaphone bells.

Tuba Exchange, at least 20 years ago, sold Miraphone 186 BBb tubas made to their own specs. No garland, no nickel silver outer slides. Immediate effect was a lower price, but my strong suspicion would be that these tubas also were very responsive, which I would consider a benefit for student instruments, even if they also may have been less durable in school environments.

Klaus
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:47 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby bloke » Sat May 05, 2018 10:08 pm

...so "to have something stronger than a sheet metal raw edge" is only a "serendipitous fringe benefit" then, of a bell kranz... :|
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 39705
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby imperialbari » Sun May 06, 2018 1:15 am

Of course not. If no Kranz there would be one of the severral other types of edge reinforcement. The Kranz only being the variant covering the most of the rim area and providing most stiffness.

Klaus
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:47 am

Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Postby bloke » Sun May 06, 2018 8:50 am

ok... 8)

It seems to me that French (rolled) rims seem to be found more on thicker gauge (.6mm or thicker) bells, and kranz rims seems to be found more on thinner gauge (.5mm or thinner) bells.

Many French rims tend to have a copper/brass wire inside (or nothing at all) whereas more kranz rims tend to feature a steel wire inside.

Experience has shown me that the .5mm thickness tuba bells (kranz with steel wire) will still end up with more creases with equal levels of abuse.
This type of bell + rotary valves (tendency towards delicate mechanisms + vulnerable valve stems which are integral parts of the valve bodies themselves), I've consistently contended, is not the best choice (imo) for school use - particularly with post-mid-century-style parenting - combined with widespread juvenile substance abuse, etc. I don't argue with band directors, though, as they want what they want...and - at least - I've found a maker that builds the lever carriage brackets and braces in a titanic manner - out of double-thickness material - along with the large-size Minibal links, in conjunction with heavy-wall French (rolled) rim bells.

back to the topic (bell sheet metal thickness related to rim style choice)...

Conn "Vocabell" instruments' bells were even thicker, and - thus - rimless.

bloke " 'anyone here like to buy a Vocabell trombone...??"

Image
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 39705
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Next

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 14 guests