To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

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imperialbari
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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by imperialbari »

Within the horn world the Kranz originally was used to prevent instruments with thin, hammered bell flares from breaking up too early in the dynamic bandwidth.

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by Dan Schultz »

bloke wrote:In Mainz, they always use a kranz.
I would have said that instead of 'garland' but my stupid spell check would not let me!
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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by imperialbari »

bloke wrote:...and I always thought that the purpose was to add strength to a brass instrument's bell's edge. :shock:
That is a positive side effect.

Spun bells have thicker walls at the edge than where the bell is joined to the stack. Less need for a garland there.

Bells with gussets may also be hammered, but the thinning is less radical. That was the old British way of making low brass bells. No garlands in that tradition.

Also in other places there is a connection between acoustic design and structural strengthening.

While I waited 3 months for my Besson 981 to be made during the spring of 1999, I loaned a sample of same size Eb tuba out of Besson’s 700-series. No compensating system and less wire attached to the outside of the 1st branchand top bow. The benefit for the model intended for students was less weight and an easier response. Only the range was very uneven. Ab on top of the bass stave would be much louder than the surrounding notes without me pushing that note at all.

The 981 has the wire going higher up onto the top bow, and does not have these uneven notes sticking out. It is a little less responsive, but it then is much more controllable. Besson used pneumatic expansion and forming inside a mold for their bows. That is bound to let the outer perimeter of the bows have thinner walls than the inner perimeters, so the guard strip would dampen theamplitude of thin metal very easily set into oscillation.

Same toes for bottom bow guards and for the guards and wires on the fat knee of sousaphone bells.

Tuba Exchange, at least 20 years ago, sold Miraphone 186 BBb tubas made to their own specs. No garland, no nickel silver outer slides. Immediate effect was a lower price, but my strong suspicion would be that these tubas also were very responsive, which I would consider a benefit for student instruments, even if they also may have been less durable in school environments.

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by imperialbari »

Of course not. If no Kranz there would be one of the severral other types of edge reinforcement. The Kranz only being the variant covering the most of the rim area and providing most stiffness.

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by pjv »

Not to mention the damage mid 20thC music could have on your instrument; plopping mpc's, banging on your valves, scrapping the bell across the floor, ticking with a ring on the instrument, slapping your hand on the bell, etc.
Glad we made it to the 21stC were we only have to play massively loud low notes at every single climax.
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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by imperialbari »

Never came across a Conn VocaBell instrument, so I have never seen a bell edge without some sort of rounded reinforcement.

As for damages: In a school context they may be hard to avoid. But I have a hard time accepting damage that has been done intentionally.

I once saw a photo of a King BBb tuba owned by a US public school. The inner top bow was badly dented. Whereas the outer bow was intact. That damage could not have come from the tuba being toppled over. That inner top bow had been kicked with a hard boot.

With that attitude among students the choice of tuba style doesn’t really matter. My preferred solution to instrument care is about letting students buy their own instruments. (And then I also prefer piston tubas).

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by imperialbari »

If I have touched banned topics, I am still unaware of which part of my post breaks any rule. I have not asked for any funding, nor hawked commercial stuff. Not even discussed politics. But as a retired teacher I still happen to have opinions on matters related to education.

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by ken k »

bloke wrote:ok... 8)

It seems to me that French (rolled) rims seem to be found more on thicker gauge (.6mm or thicker) bells, and kranz rims seems to be found more on thinner gauge (.5mm or thinner) bells.

Many French rims tend to have a copper/brass wire inside (or nothing at all) whereas more kranz rims tend to feature a steel wire inside.

Experience has shown me that the .5mm thickness tuba bells (kranz with steel wire) will still end up with more creases with equal levels of abuse.
This type of bell + rotary valves (tendency towards delicate mechanisms + vulnerable valve stems which are integral parts of the valve bodies themselves), I've consistently contended, is not the best choice (imo) for school use - particularly with post-mid-century-style parenting - combined with widespread juvenile substance abuse, etc. I don't argue with band directors, though, as they want what they want...and - at least - I've found a maker that builds the lever carriage brackets and braces in a titanic manner - out of double-thickness material - along with the large-size Minibal links, in conjunction with heavy-wall French (rolled) rim bells.

back to the topic (bell sheet metal thickness related to rim style choice)...

Conn "Vocabell" instruments' bells were even thicker, and - thus - rimless.

bloke " 'anyone here like to buy a Vocabell trombone...??"

Image
do you have one for sale? I have always wanted one of those puppies....

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Re: To Kranz, or not to Kranz? That is the question...

Post by TheGoyWonder »

It's pretty obvious to tell what happened when you look at the population then and the population now, especially select cities. Hopefully so obvious it doesn't need to be said outloud.

Tuba-related comment to avoid deletion: kranz below 17" for sure! Just not for CC tubas! :roll:
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