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Warning: BBb vs CC talk ahead. But I promise to keep it fresh, objective, and respectful to dead horses.

MANY of us have been down this road before, and believe me, I’ve read every thread/diatribe around this subject. But I still haven’t found sound advice for MY particular situation with all of the new products/variables coming to market. I also know for a fact I'm not the only one. This is actually the extrapolation of a conversation I've had with 2 professional NYC tuba players/friends over the last few months.

To preface, I studied CC tuba in college, quit for over a decade, and bought an amazing Eastman 632 last year that quickly got me back in action. Coming back to CC was like riding a really fun bike. Like many CC players I’ve talked to, the fingerings (especially in the upper register) just make a lot of logical sense being built on the natural overtone series. Furthermore, I just love the sound I get out of this particular horn – and Matt Walters personally set it up, so as one might imagine, the valve action is phenomenal.

The complications: In the last year, I started what is quickly becoming the most active second line marching band/trad brass band in NYC, which has me on sousaphone for over 90% of my monthly playing and 100% of my revenue-generating playing (and by revenue-generating I mean fund-raising for my non-profit org plus occasional busking – I’m not quitting my day job any time soon, unfortunately).

My crossroads:

I’ve been awaiting the 2019 release of Wessex’s long-rumored (now confirmed and in the final development phase) production, large-bore, 4-valve helicon. This will be the first mass-produced horn of this kind and I believe it will change the game for CC-trained folks. Cool, right?

Except I need a marching horn NOW as my entire spring and summer is already booked-up with featured parade spots, outdoor music festivals, and trad jazz gigs.

So, I got myself an AMAZING BBb sousa built from a professionally overhauled Conn 36K body and a brass 26K bell. It’s light, balanced, incredibly in-tune, and pushes some serious sound. It’s pretty much the perfect horn for my needs.

But I’ve been playing it so much in the last 2 months I’ve accidentally rewired my brain to think and read in BBb! Going back to CC now requires some mental gymnastics in physically remembering F is “1”, etc, etc.

Please note, I have extremely limited practice time due to my day job, so maintaining 2 sets of fingerings is simply not a scalable (heh) process for me. I need to pick one of these options:

1. Keep my beloved Eastman while playing HEAVILY on BBb sousa for the next 5 months, at least (during this time I’ll keep getting better at BBb, maybe even better than I was on CC). I'll buy the CC helicon when it comes out and I'll sell my sousa to recoup about 50% of the cost. I’ll then spend all winter re-learning CC fingerings and accept my fate as a "C" tubist until I die.

2. Keep the sousa… but sell my Eastman now while the market is still hot and it’s in excellent condition and recently-serviced – and get a good Eb. I’ve always wanted to own a bass tuba so I can dip my toes in solo lit. Plus, if I’m re-learning BBb fingerings, this seems like a good direction to go. Plus, perhaps a large-enough Eb would allow me to continue playing in community bands/wind ensemble (maybe?). I’m looking at the Wessex Gnagey, Cavalry, and Eastman Eb and quality used horns in that price range.

3. Same as option #2 but instead I’ll get a BBb as my concert/practice horn – specifically a newer-style King 2341 (since I love the Eastman sound so much).

I’m at an impasse.

I still believe CC has its benefits (both logically & sonically, to me) but those benefits are diminishing greatly every month that I get better on BBb and the Wessex CC helicon isn’t in my hands. However, this Helicon could be a paradigm shift for CC tuba players if Wessex hits it out of the park. The prototype seems VERY promising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9YrLdxy1No" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

In closing, this would be a no-brainer if the CC helicon wasn’t a reality… I’d go BBb/done. At least that’s the conclusion other similar threads have come to involving similar players to myself. Building a custom CC sousa is very expensive and the intonation results are often wildly unpredictable. The argument has also been made a BBb sousa would be more easily repaired or replaced in the event of catastrophe, and exponentially easier to rent/borrow if needed.

However, this upcoming offering from Wessex flips the conversation on its head… but will it arrive to market too late for me to reap the benefit? What if it’s not what I personally hoped it to be?

What’s a man to do????

Thanks for making it this far without writing this off as “ugh, another one of THESE threads!”

I played CC since my college days too, as many of us have. I also played a BBb in a Civil War brass band on Long Island for over 30 years and made decent $$$$ doing it. In playing the same charts year after year, it didn't take long for me to be able to switch back and forth between BBb and CC. When I started playing trad. jazz, I just used CC's and I learned tunes and took solos on CC. Fast forward, I moved to Texas and got entrenched in a busy trad. jazz scene here in Austin. I used a Yamaha 621 CC at first, but it didn't cut through an ensemble without a mic. I was asked if I could use a sousaphone and I thought, that I might be able to improvise bass lines on BBb, but for solos, my brain wouldn't be able to think BBb fingerings quickly enough. So, after asking the main repair/ tech guys, whom we all know, if I could have a CC sousaphone or helicon made, most of them didn't have the time to do this back then. Dan Schulz offered to make me a CC sousaphone from a Conn 36K. As he had never done this mod. before, he gave me a great deal and did the job fairly quickly. I used the sousaphone for 2 years. The pitch was a bit squirrely, but it served me well. The band members love having the large bell pointing forward like that. Then, I found out that a better candidate to cut to CC would be a Jupiter, King or Buescher sousy, where the neck wraps around into a main tuning slide before it entered the valves. That would enable a repair person to cut 14 or so inches off right in the beginning where it's all cylindrical tubing - less cutting after the valves in the more conical section. So, I picked up a Jupiter on eBay and Lee Stofer made me a great CC sousaphone. It's fiberglass with a brass bell and 6-7 lbs. heavier than the 36K, but it plays great. It's really my main instrument here.

So, I'm not exactly sure if this the right path for you. I don't know how involved your improvised solos are. Not that mine are involved, but I move my fingers faster on my CC than I could on a BBb with good sounding notes coming out. Perhaps, treading water, keeping the Eastman and waiting for the Wessex to hit the shelves would be a good idea.

Also, I did sell the 36K to a tuba player in Florida. In a recent email with him, he told me he no longer plays in the band where he used it and he's thinking of selling it. It was white when I owned it, but he painted it black - pretty cool looking. Feel free to email me (tubabill@gmail.com" target="_blank" target="_blank) if you're interested in getting his contact info.

My two cents, and I play both, have both, and keep both up that unless you have the time to devote to keeping both up and playing both every week you will just end up driving yourself crazy and frustrating yourself. #3 is your best option and gets you to where you need to be.

The Bloke-O-Phone is a stone cold rocker.

That is all.

Goodnight.

I have the same issue, I play CC Tuba for a local Concert band, and church gigs, etc. but during marching season I have to get out the Sousaphone and get my BBb chops back in shape. The more I switch back and forth between horns the easier it gets, but I do have to run some scales when I first pick up up the Sousaphone to get my mind wrapped around the new horn key. It has become easier, but I do occasional still play a clam on the Sousaphone because I forgot to use BBb fingerings. Jim Laab's is now selling a Schiller CC Sousaphone for $2000.00 and I was seriously considering it (I'm reluctant to buy one of these horns without playing it first, and from what I've read, Jim Laab's doesn't have a return policy, but they will exchange it for another of their horns), but with 2 Conn BBb sousaphones sitting here in the house already, I think for the time being I'm just going to do my best to keep up both sets of fingerings.

Radar wrote:Jim Laab's is now selling a Schiller CC Sousaphone for $2000.00 and I was seriously considering it (I'm reluctant to buy one of these horns without playing it first, and from what I've read, Jim Laab's doesn't have a return policy

OH DEAR GOD NO... RUN from that CC "sousaphone!!" It's a dog. That is unless you like tiny-bore, horrendously out of tune instruments with no low register that flood while marching so you have to take the entire thing apart to drain it... and you like crappy bracing that comes apart and literally stabs you in the ribs. If any of that sounds pleasant and you despise your $2000, that may be the horn for you!

BBb or CC or:

i feel your some of your pain Brooklynbass. I play in a trad jazz band on a CC.
Luckily we sit down And don’t march, but i always felt like i was not ‘authentic’ playing a yamaha 621cc. So I bought a conn sousaphone in Bb. It looked great, but i missed 4 valves and the Bb sound was different and the key is different (i’m a sax guy so i transpose). You can get away with a lot on a sousa! Anyway I sold that and got a MW3450. Great horn, good size, beautiful warm tone compared to the edgy 621, but again i got feelings of inauthenticity, so i got a conn 20j. Great horn, impossible to see anything, valves are not that great, and the Bb thing is not me.
Anyway now i’m back on CC horns- 99% 3450 and 1% yamaha621 when we travel by air.

Play whatever brings you joy!

Before I got this horn I stood up with a PT-10.

BrooklynBass wrote:

Radar wrote:Jim Laab's is now selling a Schiller CC Sousaphone for $2000.00 and I was seriously considering it (I'm reluctant to buy one of these horns without playing it first, and from what I've read, Jim Laab's doesn't have a return policy

OH DEAR GOD NO... RUN from that CC "sousaphone!!" It's a dog. That is unless you like tiny-bore, horrendously out of tune instruments with no low register that flood while marching so you have to take the entire thing apart to drain it... and you like crappy bracing that comes apart and literally stabs you in the ribs. If any of that sounds pleasant and you despise your $2000, that may be the horn for you!

That's why I really wanted to try one first before buying, was very skeptical about this particular horn. Thanks for your input!!

I've played the Wessex CC helicon, and it's gonna be a winner: all ranges speak easily with a broad and resonant sound, and the intonation is really good.

I love my Jupiter/Stofer CC sousaphone, but how much does the Wessex weigh? I'm intrigued !!

I don't know if this idea is practical for you or not, but the cheapest thing to do would be to rewrite all your Bb music up a step -- like a Bb trumpet reads. That way you can see an F on the page, you can finger it using your C fingerings (ie, "1") but the sound produced will be a concert Eb .

Now if you have to do a bunch of sight reading, new charts, etc. this might not be practical. But if your book is pretty set and you have access to even a rudimentary notation program (eg, musescore) this won't take too much time.

With my trumpet background and using a Bb tuba at the moment, I just use the transposition skills I have already learned and read up a step. I see an Eb, go up a step and think an F, then use "1" to play it.

Disclaimer -- I am still a tuba novice so any suggestions I have may be all nonsense.

-- Joe

The Eastman b flat copy of the king 2341 is a winner. You should give t a try. Could be your solution. I though it was better than the c.

BTW - in my first response on this thread, I did mention that the 36K CC sousaphone that I sold to a tuba gentleman in Florida, might be for sale. I contacted him yesterday and he is selling it. I told him he should post it on Tubenet, but he hasn't yet. It was a white fiberglass, 3 valve sousaphone when I owned it. He painted it black with a gold bell. The picture isn't very clear, but you get the idea. He's asking $1400.00 for it. Feel free to email me if you would like his contact info.

Bill Troiano wrote:BTW - in my first response on this thread, I did mention that the 36K CC sousaphone that I sold to a tuba gentleman in Florida, might be for sale. I contacted him yesterday and he is selling it. I told him he should post it on Tubenet, but he hasn't yet. It was a white fiberglass, 3 valve sousaphone when I owned it. He painted it black with a gold bell. The picture isn't very clear, but you get the idea. He's asking $1400.00 for it. Feel free to email me if you would like his contact info.

Bill - this is Ryan H. by the way. We've connected on FB quite a few times about this horn. Thank you again for your insight and especially for sharing this news about the sale. I love the paint job, although my BBb version turned out quite nice as well (props to Bloke for the color guidance)

If: 1. Wessex wasn't pushing out a 4-valve CC instrument for not a lot of money AND 2. my "fiberbrass" 36K wasn't such a joy to play (it's in-tune, loud, and pops out a great Eb false tone)... I would be all over this!!! As in – your friend in Florida would already have my money.

However... I know at least 2 potential buyers for that horn. Bill, can you PM me specifics in getting a hold of the seller?

I understand BrooklynBass very well as I have the same problems, not because I am playing any traditional jazz, but for the marching religious services I play with various municipal bands ( that is still a well alive tradition in my country). I can't march with my heavier CC horns, so the one I use for the purpose is an old beaten 3 valves Bb. It doesn't bother me so much to switch, mostly because the parts of the funeral and religious marches are not so full of notes or never in any "weird" key. Probably I don't realize it but I don't read them so much anymore, they are kind of memorized and my brain seems to adjust fingering depending on the horn I am holding. In fact once I tried it was more difficult for me to play those same parts on a CC instrument even if I play it as my main horn.
That said a CC helicon or any lighter CC instrument would be probably a good change for me, I see that Wessex is developing also a compensated CC kind of cavalry tuba that can be worth of interest for marching or standing gigs.

Reflection... I appreciate the adages about mastering multiple keys through practice, number system, etc. But since I'm strictly a weekend warrior who reads prearranged basslines 90% of the time (not to mention living in a tiny NYC apartment where horn ownership must be efficient), I really should hunker down on one contrabass key. It's not just the fingerings, it's the feel. I spent a lot of time catching up on CC last week, then overshot a lot of Cs, Ds, and Ebs on the sousa with its wider slotting.

I'm going to take it slow and play the heck out of my BBb sousa this summer. There are also a couple of *potential* opportunities to spend some time on/acquire a nice BBb horn. One being a 2341 with MAW valves

I also need to check out some Ebs. Next time Dillon gets an Eastman Eb in, I may scope it out. I would love to play a Wessex Gnagey if I can find one around NYC (cough, cough, Jonathan).

Hopefully, the CC helicon will come out in enough time to still be a variable in my decision. If production gets delayed, this (formerly easy) sale will be lost on me as I'll probably be fully reverted to BBb again!

PS – I'm the OP. I changed my handle because I'm considered a bass player anymore (at least not electric). Full-on tuba. Sorry in advance for any confusion!

I guess I'll put in my 2 cents since me and OP talked about this at length

First a little about me and what I do:
Classical Music Performance Degree from Purchase College. I spent years and years on CC and F. Spent the last 6 years playing full time in NYC(no day job).

When I first started gigging in college I found that my sousaphone was making me the lions share of my money. When I got to NYC I found myself playing a lot in brass bands. I made a serious push to use CC and stopped using sousa on my regular sousa gigs when I felt I could do so without losing my position. I was tired of lugging 2 horns around when I easily could do the job with 1, so I chose to use my best sounding horn. Fast forward, I get called to tour with Lucky Chops. I haven't played my sousa in months, but thats what they want so that's what they're getting. I decide to go full time on BBb and start spending my practice sessions exclusively on BBb. The more I play BBb and talk about it with my tuba playing peers it makes less sense to me to play CC and F. If you're on the road and your horn gets smashed finding a 3 valve BBb is lightyears easier than finding a 5 valve CC. BBb horns are more plentiful so on the used market you can get a lot more bang for your buck. The way I see it is if you're gonna play CC and F you're trying to be a classical tuba player. The big problem is that with a few rare outliers most people graduating will not get a job like that ever and if I'm gonna be really honest I think a lot of people choose this path because they think it's the only way that they can make a full time living as a tuba player outside of teaching. The beautiful reality is that while orchestral jobs are getting more and more rare, the brass band scene is exploding and finding it's way into the pop territory. There's such a huge demand in NYC for sousaphone players that trombone players are buying them up left and right and pretending like they can play them to get work. IMHO teachers should be more forward thinking and realistic with their students career paths as orchestras close and "improvised music" rises

This thread has been an interesting read because it's brought to mind some of my own issues on this topic that I experienced in college over fifteen years ago.

For three years during the fall, I would be playing a CC Kalison in the concert ensembles but BBb 20Js during marching. That first week back to school each fall was always rough on my brain/finger communication, but my hindsight makes me think the challenge made me a better all around player during that time.

Even as a weekend warrior, it might be worth your time to keep both keys in your repertoire. From my own experience, it was tough for a few days if I hadn't been playing BBb all summer (or vice versa), but it quickly becomes second nature to play both keys with minimal issues switching from one to the other if your situation requires it.

My $0.02 only, of course - if you really feel more comfortable on BBb and you're not getting any real comfort with CC, then make the move if that's what you want to do. Don't let anyone tell you you're wrong either way